Kristen Wambach (00:01.869)
Welcome back to Interviewing Jesus Podcast. I am your host, Kristen Wambach, with over three decades in spiritual leadership and coaching. I have learned some of the most profound kingdom wisdom comes from relationships and deep roots. And my guest today is a dear friend from 30 years ago. My goodness, we have some history here, and we're gonna get to dig up that history because back then we attended church together and found ourselves serving side by side at a defining conference, absorbing the newly unveiled healing notes of John G. Lake. And there is so much more. We were both hungry to simplify the supernatural and to press into what truly means to carry Christ within us. Since those early days in the trenches, Craig Demo has stepped fully into a God-inspired DNA launching out to build a powerful global healing ministry. Today he is joining me to unpack what it actually takes to get healing out of our spirits and into our physical bodies. That is just my passion for today's episode. We're talking about the reality of kind of like how Christ gets imprisoned in us. Versus moving from a logical mind to a Rema mind and giving you the practical Monday morning tools to receive what Jesus has already paid for you. Get ready. Hello, get ready, get ready for a soul-stirring conversation that will challenge you to live spiritually brave. Please welcome my friend and guest, Craig Demo.
Dr. Craig DeMo (01:56.698)
God bless you. Praise God. Kristen, I cannot tell you how honored I am to be with you on the podcast today. And I know there's a lot of hungry hearts and you know, as well, a lot of people that feel frustrated about things that really God has met their need, but there's a disconnect somewhere, and usually it's something very, very simple. And so I am just privileged to be able to serve God's people by bringing the word of God to bear on whatever situation that people are facing, knowing that the Spirit of God will illuminate the understanding that we need on the scriptures so that we can rightly divide and correctly apply the Word of God. Because faith comes by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. Praise God. We've heard that over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And yet we need to stay in the fight. So praise God. That's what we're committed to do. Thank you, Kristen.
Kristen Wambach (03:02.601)
I agree. Yes, yes, yes. Now, Craig, before we dive deep into the waters of transformation, unlocking the supernatural, I want to make sure that our listeners know exactly how to find you because I know by the time we are finished with our conversation, they're going to want to glean more from you. Where's the best place for people to connect with ambassador ministries and get their hands on the practical Monday morning kingdom wisdom?
Dr. Craig DeMo (03:33.400)
Well, I'm gonna start with actually I'm gonna put I think four resources before everybody and I hope that's okay. But our website is ambassadorministries.org. Ambassadorministries.org. Now if you by mistake, put a dot com, it'll still get there. So praise God. That works too, but it's ambassadorministries.org. And also if you want to communicate with me directly. My email is craig at ambassadorministries.org. C-R-A-I-G. And so they can get me that way. That's perfectly fine. Praise God. I'm not going to tell you that I'm going to, you know, respond within 30 minutes, but I will respond. So praise God. You can also go to our YouTube channel. Now I'm on YouTube, I'm on Rumble, I'm on BitChute. However, really where a lot of people follow me, well, not a lot of people, relatively speaking, but some people do follow me on YouTube. And my handle is just Craig Demo. And De Mo is like Demo D-E-M-O, and it's easy to remember because the more you see him, the more you like him. But I have over 500 videos there. And a lot of them deal with the subject we're talking about today, which is divine healing. And so just go to youtube.com for I think it's forward slash Craig Demo or something of that nature, but you can find me there. So just search for me if you don't see me right away. And then also on Facebook. I can be found there. and facebook.com forward slash ambassador ministries. So praise God. And we just love being in you know serving the people of God. So praise God. Don't want to waste your time. I know you don't want to waste mine. Let's get to business. We have a lot to do here in the last days.
Kristen Wambach (05:46.550)
Amen. Amen. And also, listeners, just a reminder, all of the links that Craig just shared with you, I will have in the show notes. So if you're driving, keep your hands on the wheel. We'll take care of it for you. All right, we're jumping in. So, Craig, 30 years ago, you and I we served together at a Curry Blake conference, diving into the teaching notes of John G. Lake. In the beginning question, some people might need to know who John G. Lake is. I have stumbled upon a few that don't know who he is. But thinking back to those foundational days, how did that early exposure to the supernatural and our oneness with Jesus shape the DNA of your healing ministry today, which you hear so many signs and wonders and miracles?
Dr. Craig DeMo (06:43.521)
Yeah, a lot of people today sort of claim Dr. John G. Lake as their spiritual mentor, or even they say that they, you know, they're spiritually sort of a descendant of John G. Lake. And there's a reason why people refer to him. The reason is is because if you look at Pentecostal history, you look at the healing revival movement the late 40s, 1950s, and 1960s, with great people like A.A. Allen, William Branham, Jack Coe, of course, you know, full gospel businessman came out of that. The, you know, healing ministries like Katherine Kuhlman came out of that, and so forth and so on. John G. Lake was a little bit earlier. He lived from 1870 to 1935, but what he did that was pretty much different than most others was that he didn't just minister healing himself. He was noted for teaching others how to minister healing to the sick. And you know, we are not just to be able to propagate the gospel, that's what we do when we minister to the sick, we lay hands on the sick and see them recover, yes, but we are also called to disciple people. So that people know exactly what to do. And I've learned that you can learn the healing ministry, you can receive instruction in it, you can be coached in it, just like you can be trained how to win souls. There really is no difference. But you need a new mindset, just like when you're stirred up about evangelism and you take an evangelism course, however that expresses itself door to door on the street, whatever it is. And you learn to practice, you can do the very same thing with ministering healing to the sick. But like I say, it takes a new mindset. I'll come back to John G. Lake in just a moment. It takes a new mindset. And what that means is you have to understand what you said at the beginning of the broadcast, Kristen, and that is that you have to grow up in Christ, which means that you know you have Christ in you the hope of glory. Now that's Colossians 1:27. The way I like to say that scripture is this: that the anointing of God in you, Christ in you, is the hope that this world has to see the glory of God. And yeah, people need to be forgiven of their sins, they need to be delivered. But if you look at the ministry of Jesus, what you find is that Jesus preached and he taught the kingdom of God, but the way he expressed the kingdom, what he did more than anything else was to minister healing to the sick. Do you know that five and a half times you actually go through, and I've done this with a harmony of the gospels, you lay out all the things that Jesus did. I'm not talking about what he preached now, not what he taught, what he actually did, and you look at all of his acts, all of the supernatural things that he did and everything that he performed, how he functioned and so forth, what you find is that five and a half times more than he forgave sins he healed the sick. And eleven times more than he cast out demons, he healed the sick. What Jesus did in his earthly ministry more than anything else was to heal the sick. And it seems to me that if he has imparted to us, if he's imputed to us the healing ministry for us to carry that on today, that what we ought to be doing more than anything else is to heal the sick. You say I can't heal the sick. Well, you can't in and of yourself, but it's not by human might, not by human power, but by his spirit. And he has put that spirit in you. Romans 8:11 says that the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead. And if you really think about the implications of that, okay, we're talking about somebody we're just going to just talk about the physical side for a moment. Not the soulish side, the spiritual side. There's a lot in that too. But you have to remember Jesus' body was completely flagellated, taken totally apart. All right. And then all of the beatings and the abuse that he suffered, and carrying the cross all the way to Golgotha's hill, and then being crucified, and then he died many hours later. And he went through all of that abuse and suffering for us. Then he was mummified, all right. Three days later, okay, after all of that, the spirit came and raised him from the dead. Well, the same spirit, not a different spirit, not part of that spirit, but the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, quickens or makes alive, or heals, or rejuvenates, regenerates our mortal bodies. Okay? So no matter what physical problem that anybody ever comes up with, okay, doesn't matter if it is an organic disease, doesn't matter if it's a result of an injury, doesn't matter if it's a scandemic okay it does something that was put on us, manufactured to weaken humanity. It doesn't matter. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, your situation, it doesn't matter if it's stage four cancer, doesn't matter if it's the advanced stages of dementia. It doesn't matter. It doesn't even pale in comparison to what that spirit did for Jesus when he was resurrected. All right. So praise God. And Jesus doesn't have any physical problems today. And as a matter of fact, he doesn't even look old. So that's pretty amazing. I would say that on that basis, if Jesus gave to the church and he did the power to heal the sick, remember we can lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Praise God. You know, and by the way, just a little side note here, he didn't say well they'll lay hands on the sick and they'll be healed. No, it's greater than that. They'll recover. Why? Because just like everybody's sins in the whole world have been forgiven. All we have to do is receive it. Everybody's sickness has been healed. We just need to receive it. We need to appropriate it. That's really it. Now, by saying that, I'm saying this is simple. Now it may not be easy, but the only reason it's not easy is because we need a new mindset. We need to be trained a different kind of way. I'm still gonna come back to John G. Lake, but let me just share this. You know, for anybody that thinks that, you know, well, you don't understand my situation. Let me tell you what happened to me. Okay. My accident was on this day. I didn't even think about this, Kristen, but it was on this day four years ago in 2022. I was out riding my bike, having a wonderful time. It was a very hot summer evening, and I was going down one hill, back up another, having a grand old time after dinner. And you know, I was coming up one hill. And I didn't see a little concrete embankment. I was going over, I was navigating over from the side of the street over into an additional sidewalk there, and I didn't see there was a concrete barrier. Well, I toppled my bicycle end over end, hit that pavement so hard, and I won't make a very long story short. I was brought up to one hospital and then they transported me to another hospital that had a better trauma care unit. And my diagnosis here's what happened. I had fractured five ribs on my right hand side and if that wasn't bad enough I also fractured my cheekbone and if that wasn't bad enough I fractured my skull. Okay, now I needed to be in Atlanta, Georgia to preach in two weeks from that time. All right. But the doctor gave me first the diagnosis and then he told me what they were going to do. He told me what was going to happen. He said, first of all, we're gonna have to do surgery on your skull to relieve pressure on your brain. Okay, then you're gonna have to be in the hospital here for weeks, possibly months, and then after that you're gonna have to go into physical therapy. Well, you know, I arrived 11 p.m. at this hospital on a Tuesday night and so here I am at 11 o'clock Tuesday night and I got that news later than that. Well my wife Terry was with me at that time we agreed in prayer. And you know something? There's something about agreement. There's something about being able to speak the word, knowing that you already have your answer. And so then what happens is, you know, they were taking me down and scanning what was going on in my body every three to four hours after that. But they took me down for one scan. And by the way, when I got that diagnosis and they told me what was gonna happen from then, you know, that I had to be woken up and they did not want me to sleep. They were afraid I could die. And so anyway, they didn't want me to leave the hospital that way. So keep me, you know, as a customer for longer. But at any rate, I come back from a scan early in the morning and doctor comes in. Starts poking at me while I wake up again. I wasn't afraid of falling asleep. I felt like I needed it. And so at any rate, he starts poking at me. I woke up, and then he just kind of goes, hmm, hmm. And he's writing on his clipboard and he says, Well, Mr. Demo, the surgery has been canceled. So what I said was, praise God. Well, this was in the intensive care unit, right? Or critical care unit, I think they call it. And so I'm there and there's only ten beds in this unit, and I've got one of them, and it kind of startled the doctor a little bit. I don't think he's used to anybody praising God in the critical care unit, but at any rate, he said, What? I said, Well, praise God. And he said, yeah, praise God. And so anyway, it was kind of so I already knew that it was canceled. And then I go through the next day, and they were not gonna allow me to have anything to eat either, by the way. And I was gonna go to my surgery first and so forth, but they canceled the surgery, and after a little while they allowed me to eat something, and so anyway, then on Thursday morning, they told me, Well, you know, you seem to be progressing really well. And I said, Well, praise God. And so they said, Well, we're gonna what we're gonna do is you know, we kind of need this space, so we're gonna move you up on the tenth floor. And so I said, Well, whatever. But then a cognitive specialist came in, and see, they were expecting me to lose a lot of cognitive ability. So by the time she came in, my wife was back in the room again. And so you know, the lady has me, you know, draw pictures and solve puzzles. And you know, I thought this is silly stuff, this is for a grade school child. And then she starts asking me a bunch of questions. And we were joking back and forth, and then this cognitive specialist says to my wife, she says, is he always this way? Or is this normal for him? And she says, Yeah, he's always this bad. So anyway, she says, Well, you know, I don't really make the final decisions around here, but I'm gonna recommend releasing you. And so they kept being delayed on getting things ready for me to move upstairs. And finally they came back in the afternoon and they said, Well, we're gonna release you to go home. And so anyway, didn't have the surgery, wasn't there for weeks or months, didn't go into physical therapy, none of that by three o'clock in the afternoon, do the math. It was 40 hours between the time I entered the hospital with a fractured skull, fractured cheekbone, five fractured ribs. I go home and two weeks later I was on the plane going to Atlanta. So now I'm not special. It's not about that. See, God is no respecter of persons, but he is a respecter of his word. And what we did was we spoke his word. We did not allow, I mean, it would have been real easy to just go along with everything they had to say because I mean, after all, they're the specialists, they're the pros, they know what they're doing, and they know how to diagnose these things and how to give you the kind of treatment that you need. But you see I knew I needed to be somewhere. Number one. And number two, look, I was in need of the grace of God. Whose fault was it I got in this accident? Mine. See, but that's what the grace of God is for. You know, and look, we all need it. It is not about how good you've been. You can't qualify for this by what you do. Jesus pre-qualified you, right? It's like if you get one of those pre-qualified cards in the mail and I always throw them away, but I could sign the thing, send it in. Hey, they're gonna give me some amount of money if I want it from them, which I don't. But the point is, when you receive the gospel, you've been pre-qualified for everything that's in the kingdom of God. Praise God. So anyway, glory to God. What Dr. John G. Lake was somebody that was well noted for teaching people how to minister healing to the sick, understanding that as a child of God, you have resident within you the Holy Spirit, which when released will always heal the sick. Always. Now, sometimes it's not received, but it will always heal the sick. And so we can have confidence, knowing that just like if somebody prays a prayer and they confess Jesus is Lord, confess that God raised Jesus from the dead, they shall be saved. That if we minister the healing virtue of the Holy Ghost, that people will be healed. And that's why we've seen thousands of people healed in Asia, in Africa, we've seen that in Mexico, we've seen that here in the United States of America, because God is a respecter of his word. And I'll tell you what, sometimes I've ministered healing to the sick, and I've not been on my best behavior, but God still honors his word because it's not about me. It's not about me, it's about what Jesus did for us. He's the one that's qualified you to receive everything that's in the covenant. And you see, you can't even mess up the covenant because the covenant is not between you and God, the covenant is between the Father and the Son. It's just that you've been made a joint heir with Christ. Now, when Dr. John G. Lake would help people understand a different kind of way of thinking about sickness and disease that it's already defeated completely. And I don't just mean conceptually. I don't mean, as we often say, positionally. There's truth in that, but the reason I don't particularly care for that word is because people still tend to separate themselves from what they have by saying, Well, yeah, in my position I have healing, but in my reality I don't, and I'm trying to get it. No, you're not trying to get healing, you're receiving what's already been given to you, just like you would receive a package at Christmas, and all you're doing is receiving it and unwrapping it, and then you take the benefit of whatever it is that's been given to you. So we find out what's in our new covenant. Now, how do we know if we have a new mindset? I say this, one of the best ways to find out is what's the first thing you think about? What's the first thought that occurs to you when you have a symptom of sickness and disease? You wake up in the morning, you have a headache. What's the first thing you think about? Is it, well, I wonder if I ought to call in sick today, I need more time in bed. I wonder if I have any aspirin in the medicine cabinet. I wonder if I can get in to see my doctor today. Or do you understand that the enemy has launched an attack? Let's not even focus on how it got there right now. The enemy's launched an attack. And because you know you're under attack and you might have even opened the door to it, doesn't matter. Okay, you can repent. All right. However it got there, the enemy has launched an attack, and what you do is you drive that back. Okay, you act like you're healed, you speak like you're healed, and you know, everything changes. Praise God. And the first thing that ought to occur to you is Satan, get out of here in the name of Jesus. You treat that just like a snake has just entered the front door of your house. So you don't accommodate it, but often what we do is we accommodate it, and then we think about well, I should pray, you know, and you know, so forth. Listen, my primary care physician is Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That's my doctor. Okay, he is the great physician. So I, you know, I have not seen a medical practice, well, except for, you know, there's a guy that's a chiropractor, he checks me out once a month and says, you're good, you know, and then I come back next month. And it's helpful, okay. Praise God. And he does that just as a gift to me, and I appreciate it. And it's a real blessing. But the point I was making, you know, other than that, I had that accident four years ago. And before that I had another accident on a motorcycle. These two wheelers, right? On a motorcycle when I was over in Thailand. And I fractured, well, actually broke two, fractured two ribs on this side. So I've done it on both sides. I'm a balanced man, praise God. But God delivered me in both cases. And in both cases, I was at fault, all right. But by the way, I was over in Thailand to minister. I was getting ready to teach in a Bible college over there for an entire week. My ministry schedule didn't skip a beat, all right? And I'll just leave it at that. You see, healing is available, but you need to understand that you are not the sick trying to get healed, you are the healed. And the enemy sometimes tries to launch an attack against you. You are dealing with a defeated foe. And that's the way, you see, that's how I teach it. That's how Dr. John G. Lake taught it. And if you go back and you read the things that he had to say, they're very instructive in a mindset of healing, health, and wholeness. Plus, it helps, you don't wait for an attack before you launch an attack yourself and go look for somebody that's sick and you minister healing to the sick. And by the way, just like you know, you give money, you reap money, right? You give love, you reap love, you give friendship, you reap friendship, you start sowing healing. You will reap divine health in your own body. Praise God. And so amen. I'm looking for long life and length of days and not just to live long, but to live strong because there's a lot that we have to do and a lot to enjoy of our covenant you know before Jesus comes. So praise God. I'm ready to go or I'm ready to stay. I'm good either way. Praise God.
Kristen Wambach (31:01.363)
Yay, yay, yay, yay. So I'm listening to you, and I my job is to help people get into the anointing. Obviously, the anointing is flowing. Yeah, it is flowing. So I'm gonna propose this question here, this story from Dr. Lake, because I know that it will help assist us. His story is written, it's called Christ Imprisoned. And Dr. Lake shared a beautiful story about a woman who had Christ imprisoned in her spirit. We can all agree with, yeah, 100% of Jesus lives in me, but she was waiting for God to show up in her bones, for what is inside of us, the full covenant promise inside of us to leak out. Out, leak out. So how do we practically unlock the reality on a Monday morning all the way to Sunday evening so that people can fully receive their healing? Because a lot of times we know it's in here. People agree with you and go, yeah, and he blesses my soul, but sometimes there's a wall or a blockage to get it to leak out into our physical bodies. Would you help us with that?
Dr. Craig DeMo (32:26.734)
Yeah, listen, I one thing I love to teach on is the process of transformation. If you don't understand this, and I've got four hours of teaching recorded on that very subject, and you know but the process you can find this by the way, some of it in my on my YouTube channel. So anyway, praise God. And it's filed I think I have a playlist called the Process of Transformation, but it's important to understand. It's one thing to acknowledge something, but it's an entirely different thing for it to have the impact to change your circumstances, change your body, change what's going on around you. Sometimes there's so much of a disconnect. Here's the real issue. Remember that we are spirit, soul, and body. Now, before you were born again, here's how it really went is that you were body, soul, and spirit. Okay? Your spirit was suppressed, your body was in control, and your soul basically just went after whatever the flesh wanted to do. That gets inverted at the new birth. So now your spirit, soul, and body. And remember in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Apostle Paul says, I pray your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless under the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. So here's what happens: you get born again by receiving information, but you have to do something with it. Remember that the soul, basically it's that your spirit is Heaven-bound. Okay. It's in alignment with Heaven already. You really can't improve the spirit. We talk about growing spiritually, but in reality, it's not that we grow in our spirit, it's that we grow in our soul to function in terms of our alignment with the spirit. All right. Oftentimes what we're doing is we're sort of switching back and forth between following the dictates of the body and the dictates of the spirit, depending on what we're mature in. And what information we agree with in our soul. Okay. The soul realm is where we make decisions about which way we're going to go. And that's what you're addressing right now. How can we get what's already true in our spirit? Remember, in our spirit, we're already complete, we're already whole, we're already perfect. All right. Now, that helps us understand scriptures like 2 Corinthians 5:17. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation. All not some, all the old things pass away, all things are become new. And then verse 18 says, And all things are of God, letting us know the substance of all things. If you want to know what your new man is like, okay, look at God. As matter of fact, over in 1 John 4:17, it says that as Jesus is, so are we in this world. You are in your spirit, man, exactly as Jesus is. Okay? No less at all. And by the way, because you're an heir of God and a joint heir with Jesus, you have everything he has. See? You're not a sub-heir, you're not a partial heir. It's not like he has an estate and he subdivided it between all of his children. That's not how it goes. He's given all of it to all of us, and we will receive all of Jesus that we want to. All right. And the thing is, we have to want to. Now, here's what happens. When you're born again, what happens is that you receive information about the new birth. All right. What happens? It affects you in your emotions. Okay, so we have the intellect, we have the emotions, but there's another part to it. You followed through by making a decision. And you did not revoke that decision. You stayed with it. Therefore, you received Christ and you are born again. Okay. Because it affected all three parts of your soul. You receive the information with your intellect, it made a difference to you emotionally. The emotions are designed to respond to information that comes into your mind. But then there's action, there's follow-through. Now, here's what happens oftentimes as far as people are concerned relative to healing: they receive the information they know. Isaiah 53:4 and 5, surely is borne our griefs and carried our sorrows, our sicknesses and our pains. Yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted, and that's how we appropriate it, is by esteeming him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted, not us. Okay. But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and with his stripes we are healed. Praise God. We know, amen. As a matter of fact, you go over to 1 Peter 2:24, and it says, who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we being dead to sins, should live under righteousness. How do we live under righteousness? By whose stripes you were healed. Were because Christ already paid the price, and because you have already received it. So you know you were healed. And we say, Praise God, I was healed. And somebody preaches that from a pulpit somewhere or hears it on a podcast like this, and we say, Amen, that's mine. Okay, so you have the information, and it makes a difference to you emotionally. But here's what has to happen is that when you are presented with something in the sense realm that tells you, I'm sick now, but you have information that is entered your mind from the spirit realm because remember, Jesus said the words that I speak unto you they are spirit and there are life. So the way he gets across what the spirit says is by giving it to us in his written word, right? And it makes a difference to you emotionally. You get excited about it, but now I have information that mitigates against that, telling me that's not true. That's where the decision has to be made. Regardless of how I feel, I feel that pain, I feel that stiffness, I feel that tightness, I feel that restriction. Nonetheless, I am healed by the stripes of Jesus, and you go with that. And many times we're not willing to do that because you know what are people going to think about us? Well, they're going to think we're crazy. Okay. Get over it. Okay. you know, seriously. Just get over it and listen: the more you decide to go with what information you receive from the spirit, the more success you'll have in terms of your experience. That's where you want the word of God to work, is not just positionally somewhere, up in the ether somewhere, and you know it intellectually and you say yes, amen about it, but when that pain hits, or when somebody in your family comes down with a serious illness or they have an injury, you know, you might break a bunch of bones like I did. Well, praise God. Psalm 34:20 says, He keeps all my bones, and none of them is broken. So therefore, I command every bone to get back in place in Jesus' name. You see, you know, we have so many great and precious promises that by these we might be partakers of the divine nature. We have the divine nature, but we need to partake of it. We need to experience it. And we do that by agreeing with God all the way, not just in our intellect, not just in our emotions, but the way we act, as we walk it out. See, that's why James told us that faith without works is dead. And we need to stop using scriptures like that as some kind of cudgel, some club to beat people over the head with and say, Well, see there you don't have faith, or see there you're not really a Christian. That is not true. Okay? Somebody's doctrine can be messed up. Somebody could have problems and hang ups that they have not yet overcome, and yet they're born again. But they need for the word of God to have preeminence in all areas of life as part of their experience. If they'll do that, that addiction will go, that sickness will go, that financial problem will go, and I've experienced lots of them. But nonetheless, those things have to go if we agree with the word over and above whatever we see in our experience in our body in our family in our relationships in our day-to-day habits in our bank account no matter what the word of God is true Jesus said John 17:17 sanctify them and this scripture by the way is for you for everybody under the sound of our voices. Sanctify them or set them apart through your truth. And Jesus was praying to the Father. Set them apart through your truth. Your word is truth. That's the truth. Everything else, you know, as far as we're concerned, we treat it like it's a lie. And we're not saying it's not real, but we treat it like it's a lie. Another translation of that word truth there in John 17:17 is the word reality. In other words, Jesus is praying that you would be set apart in your reality, not just intellectually, not just in your emotions, but in your reality, in your experience. Set he wants you set apart in your reality so you stick out like a sore thumb. Amen. To be set apart in your reality and his word is your reality. And if people say, Well, you act like you live in a different world entirely, you could tell them, Yeah, I actually do. I mean I do. I live seated with Christ in Heavenly places. And not only that, but you know what? I'm here too. So praise God. We could go on like this forever, but I know we've got some limits.
Kristen Wambach (44:12.477)
Yes, yes. I know. I'd like to share a testimony that just shows just the grace of God, where he moves on our behalf and he gets way past our thinking and he just initiates his goodness. Years and years ago, my husband Don had an auto repair business and one of the guys that was in the industrial shop like where he had a shop, they used to have lunch together. Well, over a period of time they got to be friends and Don had come home and I'd hear about Dave and Dave and his wife Pat and then Pat got pregnant and you know, you hear the stories through your spouse of the people they hang out around with in their workplace. And so all of a sudden I heard one day that Pat's pregnancy went fragile and she was up at OHSU, the big hospital up in Portland. And but what Don, my husband, told me, he says what was really upsetting is that even though she was at the hospital and been there for a month, none of her friends went and saw her. So Don knew me, and Don knew that if he told me that, he knew that I would go. Of course I'd go. So we hooked it up. Don told me, then I told Don. Don told Dave. Dave told Pat and I arranged to go up, you know, by the end of the week. And I drove up there and I entered into the maternity ward and there were all these bored very pregnant women who had fragile pregnancies everywhere. And I went and I introduced myself to Pat and was talking to Pat, da-da-da-da. And she was very nice. And she was telling me about all these women that she had met on the floor that she was at. And every time she mentioned this one woman, my ears would almost burn. And I went, that's so interesting, God. And so I talked with Pat and she told me stories. My ears would burn when I heard this one lady's name. So I laid hands on Pat and blessed her and you know what we do. It wasn't anything fabulous. And she goes, Well, you know, I'm kind of tired. I'm going to take a nap now. Thank you for coming and visit me. And I just felt Holy Spirit prompt me and I said, Pat, would you introduce me to your friend that you were talking about? She goes, sure. So she got a wheelchair and she rolled down to the room, and we went in, and her name was Jackie. And she introduced me to Jackie. And of course, these mothers were all extremely bored. And so any guest, they were just delighted to see. And so Pat said, I'm gonna take my nap. You just talk to Jackie. And so I chatted with Jackie, and then I asked if I could pray with her. And so I laid hands on her and was trying to be kind of gingerly, you know, she just met me and she says, Of course she can pray for me. And she was in there, and what was going on with her pregnancy, they told her if she didn't stop hemorrhaging, she was gonna lose her child in 24 hours. And so I prayed for her, and it was nice and polite in Jesus' name and everything. And I was moving away from praying, and I heard Holy Spirit absolutely goes. Pray for her in your prayer language. What? What, you know, in your prayer language, just kind of like I'm having this silent argument with Jesus, saying, Are you nuts? Here's all the scripture that says I can't pray for her in public, you know, in your prayer language in public places, da-da-da. But of course, you always lose arguments with the Lord. And so I said, okay. So I gave her a little bit of a mini teaching, you know, about my prayer language, that it was this divine language from Holy Spirit given to me to help bless and build up your most holy faith. And she goes, Okay, cool. She was very lighthearted about it. And I said, May I pray for you again? And she said, sure. And so I laid my hands on her, took a deep breath, like, help me, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. She's gonna think I'm that, right? And I prayed for her in the Holy Ghost. Maybe forty five seconds. I just let my prayer language come over and bless her. And then I opened up one eye and I was peeking, like, what's going on? And all of a sudden she's weeping, weeping. And all of a sudden, God, I broke her. What did I do? You know, what did I do? You know, I broke her. And she's just weeping and crying. And I'm, are you okay? Are you okay? She goes, Yeah. And she's crying and then all of a sudden when she composed herself, she said to me, She goes, My father was full blooded Cherokee Indian. And when I was a little girl, he used to pray for me. And he used to tell me stories in native tongue, and you sound just like him. She was healed instantly and delivered what in a few weeks, a healthy baby boy. And that was just like that. Is the grace of God? God the Father brought in this crazy woman with this special prayer language, and he talked just like her papa, and that healed her, that intimate just healed her. And I am so glad that I didn't argue with the Lord and I followed through. But isn't that just the grace of God? He makes it easy. He knows how to talk to his kids. It's his responsibility as the author and the finisher of our faith, as the guarantor to bring forth the good work through us.
Dr. Craig DeMo (50:26.370)
Yes, yes. Amen. Praise God. That's exciting. Praise God. Listen, if we'll just do this, if we'll just do the stuff, put ourselves in a position where God can use us, He will. Glory to God. And a lot of times he'll tell us to do something that doesn't make a lot of sense. But you know, listen, something else too. If you don't know what to do, just do what you know to do from the word. You can share the gospel. You can encourage somebody. You can minister to the sick. You can help somebody. You have the ability. And praise God. So thank the Lord. Amen.
Kristen Wambach (51:07.797)
Yay, yay. This is just so awesome. And listeners, we know that through the sound of our voice, I mean, yes, maybe this is a podcast. Maybe you're going to hear it in three weeks from when it was recorded. The anointing is live. Heaven, there's no difference in time frame in the Heaven of God. There's no difference, and God has you on his mind right now. And Craig, would you please just pray as God has called you and as God has anointed you to release healing.
Dr. Craig DeMo (51:51.168)
Amen. Amen. A couple things real quick. There's people that their not just interest, but their motivation to minister healing to the sick has really been increased during this time. And God has something very special for you. And listen, I know you got a lot of questions. You know, we have only spent about 50 minutes together. And, you know, we haven't answered every question. We haven't gotten into every objection. We haven't looked at every circumstance, but just the fact that you are beginning. You know, you learn to drive a car, you learn to ride a bicycle or bake a cake without knowing everything about it. You just follow the instructions the best you knew how. And the more you do it, the more natural it becomes. This is no different, not at all. So praise God. Thank God for you. God sent you here today so that your desire would be increased. It's Christ working within you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Praise God. But in addition, I even felt before we started the recording today that there was people that are listening today, at whatever time, and it doesn't matter whether it's the first time it's broadcast or three weeks later, it doesn't matter if it's three years later. People listening, many of them are discouraged right now. You're expecting God to do something for you, but I'll tell you the picture I get in my heart right now, Kristen, is this it's like you're holding up the shield of faith and you feel like you can't hold it up any longer. It's full of so many fiery darts. You don't know if you can take another incoming. And you're getting weary. And I want to just say to you: God has not forgotten you, but God has also given you what you need to endure this time, and you'll be able to look back on it, and it'll seem like no time at all, even though right now it seems like, I've been standing forever. And that's not really true, but I have certainly been there too. So I understand what that's about, but that's not even the point, is whether we understand it or not. The fact of the matter is, you have a savior that is touched with the feeling of your infirmities. And we glory in those infirmities so that the power of Christ may rest upon us. It is not about you, it's not about me, it's about Jesus and the price that He paid for us. So with that in mind, let's pray right now. I'm also going to pray for those that are in need of healing today. So praise God. Can't be real lengthy about this, but we're just going to minister. And the power of Jesus is here. It's present to heal the sick. Father, you might want to just if you can, not if you can't, but if you can, hold your hands toward whatever kind of screen you're looking at right now. In the name of Jesus, Father, I just thank you for everybody that's listening to this broadcast. And I thank you, Lord God, that there's been truth imparted, revelation that's come forth, Lord, that will cause them to never be the same from this time forward. Not because of even the forcefulness of the revelation, and there is power in it, Father. We want to thank you for that anointing, which produces that power, but it's also because decisions are being made to move forward in the right direction with information that has been imparted by the Spirit of God and that it's not just animated emotions today, but there is follow-through. And we just thank you, Lord God, for lighting a fire underneath our saddle, so to speak, or underneath where we're sitting, so that Lord, we will move forward. We're moving in the right direction. We are making decisions today to go with the word. And to disallow circumstances that should not be in our life to be there any longer in Jesus' name. Praise God. And for those that are discouraged today, I just speak encouragement. I speak for there to be a boldness in spirit that would come upon each and every one of us so that we would do what we know to do. And Lord God, in terms of techniques or exact steps to take or this and that. Father, well we know it's not about that, but we are moving in the right direction, doing as we know to do, knowing that you will give us the next instruction, you will show us the next step, and we will go forward with the things of God. Now, Lord, for those today that are afflicted in their body, they are suffering and Lord, it doesn't matter if it's a headache, doesn't matter if it's stage four cancer, doesn't matter if it's liver disease, if somebody's on dialysis right now, doesn't matter if it's a cognitive decline issue, doesn't matter if it's a problem with the eyesight, with the hearing, doesn't matter if it's a lung problem, doesn't matter if it's a heart problem, does not matter. Doesn't matter if it's something to do with the muscles, with the bones, with the feet. Father, we just praise you in the name of Jesus. That Lord, as the word tells us in Proverbs 4:20-22, that your word is health, it's medicine to all of our flesh, every part of our body. So, Father, right now in the name of Jesus, we take that medicine, we speak it out in Jesus' name. We declare in the name of Jesus that He has taken our infirmity and borne our sicknesses, and what He took, we're not gonna take. What he bore, we're not gonna bear. So that not only do we receive the benefits of the salvation that Jesus bought and paid for, but he is honored by our taking it in Jesus' name. We receive healing. We declare to every sickness, every disease, every infirmity, every weakness, every malady, every pain, in Jesus' name. Go! Now go in the name of Jesus. Never to return. Never to return in Jesus' name. Praise God. Lord, your word tells us in 1 Peter 2:24 that by his stripes we were healed. We acknowledge that we were healed. And Lord, we choose to walk in divine health every day, in every way, in the name of Jesus. Praise God. Praise God. Praise God. I want to challenge you today, those that have received healing, you know something's changed already, but even if it isn't fully manifest yet, get to Kristen your testimony. That would be a great blessing to this podcast and to the listenership. And I just want to thank God for this platform in Jesus' name. Amen.
Kristen Wambach (59:20.341)
Thank you so very much. Thank you, Craig, for sharing. And I just thank God that, you know, what we experienced together 30 years ago has just grown. It is just grown. Thank you so much for spending this valuable time with us. Remember, listeners, that you can get a hold of Craig, his YouTube channel at ambassadorministries.org. And your YouTube channel is again
Dr. Craig DeMo (59:52.684)
Yes. It's my name, Craig Demo. Yeah, so hey, I wanna just say this too, and you could send me an email or you could actually go to my Facebook page and request a copy right there. But you can get I have a book called Seven Secrets of Divine Healing. And Seven Secrets of Divine Healing, you can get that for free in digital format. And it's an easy read, but it will get you to thinking about some things that will help change the mindset. And we'll give you an opportunity in that book, Seven Secrets of Divine Healing, to study with us if you want to do that. And you can do that online. We are setting up another session of the Divine Healing Boot Camp, which we'll bring you through, and that will be available in the future on our website so praise God we will show you how to be a part of that and we have some other materials too like if you join the Divine Healing Boot Camp which is our study group you'll receive with that a copy of the Divine Healing Training Manual and this is over a hundred full-size pages you know eight and a half by eleven of study material that as you dive into that, you know, every day and just put yourself in a saturation learning environment over a period of time, it will ruin you for anything else than walking in divine health and imparting that to others. So praise God. I just wanna say that to you, but go ahead and avail yourself of whatever materials we have online and believe that all of this will be a blessing to you.
Kristen Wambach (01:01:53.461)
Thank you, thank you, thank you so very much for joining us.

Beyond just Your Spirit: His Work Within with Rick Osborn ❖ 296
Transcript & Timestamps

[0:00] Kristen Wambach Have you ever felt completely exhausted trying to earn a word from God? Like you are constantly striving, waiting for a rare visitation or hoping you are good enough to finally get an answer. What if the exact face-to-face intimacy Jesus had with the father—I'm going to say that again. What if the exact face-to-face intimacy that Jesus had with the father is already yours right now? As a spiritual investigative journalist, I'm highly curious and I'm here to tell you that the days of pleading with a distant god are over. Today, we are taking a sledgehammer to religious striving. Yes, a sledgehammer. We are unlocking the raw week one reality of a new covenant where the creator of the universe is actively and living inside you causing you to desire and to do his will. It is time to step out of the exhaustion and into the comfortable continual conversation with the Lord that changes your Monday morning and is still there at the end of Sunday evening. That is what we're all hungry for. Let's bridge the heavens and the earth and rewrite your life right now.
[1:39] Kristen Wambach
Hello from the Pacific Northwest. I'm Kristen from kristenwak.com and you're listening to the Interviewing Jesus podcast. Answer me this. How does a Baptist farm girl from Oregon stumble into the mystical nature of Christ? The love of God. If you're like me, Jesus has redefined everything you used to say yes to. Join me and my guests as we step into a mystical journey. But before we touch the spiritual woo woo, know this. I'm 100% sold out to Jesus. It's incredible what the love of God reveals.
[2:33] Kristen Wambach Welcome back to Interviewing Jesus podcast. I'm your host, Kristen Wombck. As an ordained pastor and a spiritual investigative journalist who likes to ask really good questions. My mission is always to bridge the gap between heaven and earth, bringing you supernatural wisdom that rewrites your life. I mean, really, what's the point if we're not rewriting our lives? Amen. Today I am sitting down with a truly profound guest. Rick Osborne is a best-selling Christian author of over 10 million copies of his book sold worldwide. But his true authority doesn't come from his resume. It comes from that secret place. For 10 years, Rick was literally sequestered with the Lord where the Lord walked with him, taught him the scriptures, and radically transformed him from the inside out. He's an author of At Work Within and the visionary behind Transformed You. He is also launching a highly anticipated free ultimate Hear God's Voice workshop on August 7th. Today we are taking a deep dive and we're going to jump into those essential life style tools to experience the exact same face-to-face intimacy with the father and advance in the kingdom in your everyday life. Rick, it is an absolute honor that God would connect us and put us in the same room. Welcome to the show.
[4:12] Rick Osborne
Amen. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. I really appreciate it.
[4:16] Kristen Wambach
Yes. Now, Rick, you spent 10 years sequestered in that secret place, having a face-to-face encounter with the Lord. But your message isn't that this level of intimacy is just for you. It is for absolutely everyone. And I totally agree. To prove that, you opened the doors to a free ultimate Hear God's Voice workshop on August 7th. Before we get to the deep waters of your testimony, tell our listeners how this workshop is going to demystify hearing God's voice for their own everyday life.
[4:59] Rick Osborne
Well, thanks for having me on and that's a great question. If you look at John 10, right, and the times that Jesus said, "My sheep will hear my voice, my sheep hear my voice, my sheep listen to my voice," and what we've done in the body of Christ is we've taken those scriptures and we've—and I'm using the term because everybody recognizes it—"hear God's voice." The problem with that is that we've kind of made it into a visitation kind of thing cuz we haven't understood the context of the verses. In other words, I'm waiting to hear... like I'm going to get quiet and I'm waiting to hear God's voice. There's an event that is hearing God's voice. What I didn't realize because I did the same thing decades ago. I taught classes on hearing God's voice based on that same kind of idea. When Jesus taught me his word, he taught me that every time he taught something, all his words were the father's words. Yes, they were his father's words, but that he was also our example. He used the word of God, the Old Testament, how we have it now cuz God's always been on plan A. Ephesians 1:4 says that he saw us in Christ before the foundation of the earth. So nothing has changed. So all the prophets prophesied about us in Christ. They look forward to this time. Right? So if you look at what Jesus was in John 10, he's actually quoting from all the prophecies about the good shepherd. He's quoting from all the prophecies of hearing God's voice, of Israel hearing God's voice or not hearing God's voice, listening to his voice and what that means. And so what happens is all of a sudden you put that in the context of the new creation, right? And the fact that we are filled with all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, that we in him, that we are now the temple of the Holy Ghost. We don't realize that God has returned us to conversation. And that's what he's talking about in John 10. A face-to-face intimate relationship with the father. Whereas we've been taught in a way that it's almost like we got to earn it. And I love what you said about that. You don't have to earn it. You don't have to struggle. Jesus said it's finished. And the relationship with the father was already done.
So when I was away for the 10 years, he started teaching me more about this because for decades, Kristen, for decades, literally my whole thing... when I was a young Christian, I had an experience in a pre-service prayer meeting where it hit me that knowing God would be the ultimate thing. I spent decades saying, "God, I want to know you. God, I want to know you." Over the years being an author, a pastor, a counselor, an itinerate speaker, etc. I felt constantly growing. I did all the spiritual disciplines. I mean, I prayed every day. I studied the word. I did all of the stuff, right? But I felt like I was still hearing his voice clearly and I had great experiences to tell. But I always knew in my heart I was only like that far along in actually really knowing him.
And when Jesus walked in the room and said, "Okay, I'm going to start teaching you directly and personally from my word from like that day forward." And good thing he didn't tell me how long it would take cuz it was 10 years cuz I don't know if I could have had the faith to go for that, to just actually close down all my publishing, all my book writing, all my ministry tours, speaking everything. But that's what he had me do for 10 years. And one of the things that he taught me was the reason why I wasn't getting there is because it's like healing. I was crying out for something I already had in Christ.
And then he started to teach me. How many times do you think Christians have read John chapter 10? If you read your Bible regularly, you know, hundreds, possibly thousands of times. Same thing with me. But he stopped me on John 10:14 and 15. And I'm surprised I had never seen it. This is what Jesus said. Take the number 15 out. Pretend there's no split in there. Okay? And just read this one sentence cuz that's what kind of slows us down and we don't see it. Jesus said exactly this and you can go read it in your Bible everybody. Okay? He said, "My sheep know me and are known by me in the same way that I know the father and the father knows me."
When Jesus showed me that and it's like stop son, read it again, and the revelation came... I realized that just like he's given us his life—we don't have the Adam life anymore, we have the Christ life—he's given us his life, he's given us his joy, he's given us his peace, he's given us his mind, he's given us his righteousness... he gave us his relationship with the father. We have it already and yet we run around wondering if God's not listening to us or he's taking us through a quiet time where he's not talking to us. The prophet Ezekiel said that when I pour out my spirit, I will no longer hide my face from my children. Promise done. And yet we're still walking around like we're living under the old covenant and waiting to hear a voice every once in a while as opposed to learning to walk in conversation with the father.
And that's what I want to do in this workshop is I'm going to open up what the word of God says where Jesus was quoting from. Go back to the original scriptures, bring the scripture out and show people how to actually walk in a face-to-face relationship with him and in conversation with him constantly, where hearing from him is not a struggle because Jesus already paid for it and he put us in that situation. So I don't cry out for it anymore. I don't fast for it. I don't try and perform for it with spiritual disciplines. I don't do anything like that. And I love the way you focus on that Kristen in your podcast. It's by grace. Why is it by grace? The old is gone. The new has come. Our Adam life we're no longer connected to it except for you know if we're not renewing our mind we tend to go back there into the echo of that. All the new has come. We have the Christ life and we have to learn to walk in the Christ life and everything he's given us. Now that's a from glory to glory process. You know, you don't just get there all at once, but I'll cover that with everybody as well.
And over 10 weeks, 10 sessions, I'm going to teach people what the Bible really says, change their expectation, and get them to the place where they're just walking in a everyday normal regular conversation like we saw Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall. We're returned to a double portion of that. I mean, even Cain and Abel. Cain killed his brother Abel and the Lord God's standing there next to him having a conversation with him about it. Like you and I are talking. Hello. And sin was already in the world. It wasn't God who distanced himself from us. It's us who distance ourselves from God. And we no longer believe how much he loves us and how much he delights in the idea of having a relationship with us. So I'll stop because I got 10 sessions to do. I could go all day.
[12:47] Kristen Wambach The connection for people to sign up for your workshop that is just around the corner. So I'm publishing this next week. So it's the next week that you go live. Where do they sign up for it?
[13:04] Rick Osborne
They go to hear God's voice now. That's heargodsvoicenow.com and I literally mean now. There's so many people that say everyone else hears God's voice. How come I can't? It's probably a good thing that you haven't under the old rules done that yet cuz it's going to be easier for you to not have to unlearn. So, if you're one of those people who struggled about hearing God's voice, this is perfect for you. If you're one of the people who heard like I was hearing God's voice in instruction and leading and in a ministry and all that kind of stuff, but you're ready to go to that next level where just having a comfortable conversation all the time, you're ready for that, then this is for you as well. I mean, Paul said pray continuously. Under the old idea of prayer, under the old covenant idea of prayer, pray continuously... Well, I better set my smartphone to go every hour so I remember to talk to God and I got to stop and pray about everything. And it's this great big wait and this works thing because we're trying to figure out how. Pray continuously just means walk in a continual conversation with him and he's at work within us. And I'm going to teach that too because Jesus is our teacher and he is our master or shepherd now. He's the shepherd. It comes John 10. He's the one who teaches us how and causes us to walk in it. All the stress is gone. And I'll teach everybody how to do that as well. What that new covenant promise is and how you can have Jesus walk with you and beside you and teach you how to grow in this and perfect it.
[14:43] Kristen Wambach I'm just gonna say amen. Yay. It is so good. There's a metaphorical picture I use from technology. So, regarding praying all day, we carry around these very expensive cell phones that can connect us anywhere to anyone in the world in nanoseconds. Whether it's voice, whether it's texting, whether it's the FaceTime with the picture, you know, technology simply is a prophetic picture of what our relationship is with him. We never needed phones to talk to God. And you think about it, that's what the praying without stopping is, that you're always hooked in the same frequency. He's always right there, but it's constant. We put our cell phones down and we function in that. And a lot of times you don't even see Jesus's lips move because it's here. It's this conversation that's going back and forth between you.
[15:48] Rick Osborne Amen. That's exactly it. Smartphone. God's a lot smarter than that. You got a smart God. Yes. And think about this. Solomon's temple, he built it. The glory of God showed up. Everybody got knocked over. Why? Because they're still in Adam. They couldn't take the presence of God. It had to be in a temple, which represented where God's presence was going to be and where he wanted to be in his own children. So now we're the temple of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 6 tells us that we're one spirit with him. Now in Solomon's temple, God said, "Okay, anybody who has anything to talk to me about, just go to the temple and talk to me and I'll hear you and grant your requests." Or what they started doing too was just facing the temple and praying where they were. Well, you don't have to go anywhere or face the temple. You are the temple. That was all a picture of you.
[16:46] Kristen Wambach Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'd love to hear the story again or with a new twist. When Jesus walked into your room and revealed himself to you, how did that intimate moment rewrite your understanding like of Ephesians 3:20? How did it shift your focus from pleading for a distant God versus helping you to realize the power was already at work within you? It was already functioning and moving and placing you in that intimacy.
[17:22] Rick Osborne Yeah. Well, what people need to realize too is I had been running after God, walking with God, ministering, writing books, you know, I've written over 60 and co-published with some pretty big authors and stuff like that, right? And everybody who knew me would say, you want a question about God, you go to Rick. Everyone would say I knew my Bible better than anybody. Right? So people need to understand that I was the guy who thought I knew my Bible but it turns out I knew it a mile wide and an inch deep. And everybody would have said like for instance you know as an itinerate speaker you're looking for you know two major revelations from the spirit of God from the word like a year or whatever. You write a book on that, you go on a speaking tour, you bless and change the lives of people. That's the way it works.
Jesus walked into the room and he very casually walked into the room kind of just to the side of me and then turned a bit and said, "Son, I am going to start teaching you personally and directly from my word." And it happened so quickly. And then he left. And the thing was he didn't go ta-da, he didn't go this is a moment from God. He very casually, like him and I just finished Sunday brunch together and he was leaving and just saying goodbye on his way out the door. It was very casual. Always got me why it was so casual like that. And sometime later he showed me why. I mean, John 14 says that Jesus says that if you love me, you know, and do what I command, which in the new covenant, we automatically do because we're reconnected to his nature. It's the new covenant. He's at work within us, right? He says, "I will love him or love her, love them, and I will manifest myself to them."
We have a story in Acts chapter 9, I believe it is, where Jesus walks into the room basically in a vision, starts talking to Ananias about going to see Paul. If you read it, there's no ta-da. There's no anything like that. Ananias just goes, "But Lord, isn't he the guy who's killing Christians?" It was normal. Luke, who recorded it, didn't put any pizzazz in it when he recorded it. That's just the way it is. Jesus said he'd do that. Do you want to learn how to trust Jesus for that? You know nowadays it's like you say Jesus walked in the room and people go oh this Rick must be somebody. No. The Lord showed me well what I just did should be normal with my children, son.
So it took me and let me say this I'll qualify that he always is talking to us from right in our heart, we're one spirit with him, he's not going anywhere, he's always right here but he'll do things like that like an open vision or him actually manifesting himself or whatever to punctuate the conversation right? In this particular case, he was punctuating the conversation cuz he knew I had some tough decisions to make as we move forward from that moment. Letting go of everything else, stopping everything, even that meant much of the revenue stopping all of that kind of stuff and just focusing on him for 10 years. But man, you ask me now, would I change those 10? Not in a moment. Here's the guy who thought he knew God's word. And you know, like I said, two major biblical revelations in a year, I was getting a dozen or 20 of those a day.
He just opened the word to me that night, Kristen, that night, okay? I was all excited about this vision. I wasn't sure exactly what it meant or how it was going to happen or anything like that. My wonderful wife, Luba, had crawled into bed ahead of me and said good night, and she was already asleep. I was still feeling awake and I felt that I should, you know, maybe study the word for a bit. So I grabbed my iPad, opened it up, sitting up in bed and suddenly the presence of God in the room was amazing. And it was like Jesus was sitting on the bed beside me and he started... I'm a cross reference nerd, okay? I've got every cross reference Bible there is and every cross reference system, okay? And he started giving me cross references that aren't in any of those books. He started showing me where to go. He showed me the first place he took me. He gave me chapter and verse. And then he would say, "Okay, now go look at this." And I'd say, "I've never seen it before. It's like John 10." He's saying the same thing there is what you said, Lord Jesus. And it's like all of a sudden, one of the things he taught me, which I teach in the school, is how Jesus teaches us to read the word. Like people who go through my school, they come out at the other side say, "I've been reading my Bible for whatever years or decades and always kind of struggling to get what does this book mean and how does that apply to me and is that an inspirational thing or whatever." They come out of our school and you can't get them to stop reading their Bible because they understand the whole thing because they got Jesus beside them teaching them and Jesus is the word. So every time he quoted from the Old Testament He was teaching us how to interpret it.
It's like the stuff he just started teaching me. And again, I was the guy who everyone thought knows the Bible. And I'll tell you what we have in the word. It's truly it is the life of God. It is the key to everything we do. and we've come to the place in the church where it's almost like, well, everyone's heard the story of David and Goliath and the exciting Bible stories. So, you know, let's talk about something else. Now, everything in the Bible applies to every part of our life, so we should be talking about something else. But I'm talking about sort of the boredom factor. Yeah, we know the Bible. No, you don't. Trust me, I thought I did. And no, I didn't. So I went through that Kristen, my wife's nickname for me became Weepy Boy. And if you ask her now why she called me Weepy Boy, she said because my husband wept for 10 years. Yes. Yeah. Just the presence of God and his presence and him taking me in the word every single day and the visions and the dreams... But here's the thing. Now with what he's taught me, no one's got to spend 10 years because I can teach what he taught me in a fraction of the time. And what I recognize now is that knowing of his presence, that knowing of his love, that constant revelation knowledge flowing through you is something he has for all of us. It wasn't Rick being a special guy. It was a grace put on Rick so that I could teach everyone how to experience what I experienced.
[24:55] Kristen Wambach I agree. I agree. So I'm such a visual person and you're talking and there is a vision of Jesus standing right behind you and he's got this little notepad. He's taking notes and then he shows me the notes and he goes, "Remember this and remember this." And I go, "Okay, okay." And so a metaphorical picture because when I get the picture then I get the tangible. Oh, this makes it really easy. As parents, you know, if you have adult children or you know they're in middle school, junior high, whatever, and they came over with the kids, we wouldn't think twice about just walking into the house and opening up the refrigerator. We as parents, we wouldn't think anything about our kids just coming in and open up the refrigerator. That's how wonderfully available it is. God doesn't mind us coming in. We don't have to ask for permission to open up the refrigerator. He expects it of us.
[26:02] Rick Osborne Exactly. and your grandkids wouldn't come into the house or your kids wouldn't come into the house and think mom's in the inner sanctum. Maybe she's quiet right now. Maybe she doesn't want to talk to us. It's like, okay, my grandkids are here right now with me in town, right? We live a distance away. They're here with me right now. And my grandkids when they come in the door, they're not wondering whether granddad is going to spend some time with them or not. No, the smile on my face and the strength of the hug and the gladness over seeing them and the pouring out of joy tells them everything. And the Bible so clearly says this and I teach this on my podcast about relationship with God and all the scriptures that say he delights in his children. He delights in being with us. One time when I was sitting with the father and just having a chat and talking to him as we've been going through the word and everything like that just this really close intimate time and he says son I did this for you for my children because I want you to know me I want you to have access to live life with me and everything that I've blessed you with but he says I also did this for me... He says, "This is my delight." He says, "You being here right now and us talking and this me doing this with my children," he said, "this is my delight and I've looked forward to it for such a long time."
[27:45] Kristen Wambach I'm going to I'm going to jump in there because that just the atmosphere totally changed at that. Woo! Yeah. And right there, listen to what I say. Reward it. Or actually, Rick, would you pray for us right there with what just happened? Would you pray for us, please?
[28:07] Rick Osborne Yes. Father, that is your delight. And you've shown it to me so much. And I'm just going to simply ask you cuz I know it's your desire that you would demonstrate to everyone who hears me praying right now and in the future cuz Holy Spirit might be a recording but you're still here. I just ask that you would show them how much you delight in a relationship with them. How much you delight in them. how much you delight like a father with his children, no matter where they're at, no matter how young they are in the Lord, that you delight in them and want to take them from this point and move them forward lovingly hugging them, holding their hands, having them on your lap. You just delight. Let them from this point forward see you with that smile of delight on your face every time they turn their face towards you. Thank you, Father, in Jesus name. Amen. Yay.
[29:14] Kristen Wambach Good stuff. Good stuff. I know. Get the Kleenex box out. Yeah. I am guilty of being one of those super motivated, focused, in your face. Well, he made me that way. There's purposes for it, but some just the reminder of that he looks forward that I'm going to be purpose focused and in his face for the day. You know that he's just that desirous to sit down with me any at any portion of the day whether it's in the bathroom, the shower, whether we're taking a drive to the grocery store does not matter the location. It just matters that we keep our heart just turned aside, just tuned in. It's just our heart is available for all the lovely whatevers of life.
[30:14] Rick Osborne Amen. And God invites us in. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says that we're beholding the Lord as in a mirror. Why? Because we're being changed into his image. We're beholding it as in a mirror. It's his love, his life, his grace, his joy, his righteousness, his mind, his intellect, his spirit of wisdom, his spirit, his anointing, all that stuff, his relationship with the father. So it says that as we behold him as our example and as our teacher moment by moment who takes us into it, our covenant, our guarantor, as we allow him to take us deeper and deeper and we keep our eyes on him, what happens is it says we are transformed from one level of glory to another into the same image. So when we see before us the ability that we have the gift that we've been given to have this everyone who's listening have you ever thought about the kind of relationship that Jesus had with the father? Do you think it was probably like really intimate and really close? Do you think he had any trouble hearing God's voice or he had to wait for the occasion to happen? No. He's given you that same thing. Do you want to walk in that? Now that doesn't mean you're going to start today and all of a sudden you're going to be there. Right? It's from glory to glory. But the thing is is if you understand where you're going and how to get there...
When I went through the 10 years, the Lord first wanted 3 hours a day for me. Then he said now six. Then he said now 12. By the end of the 10 years, there was days I was spending 16 hours a day with him. And you know what? That was all by grace. I understood enough by grace that when God said it to me, I said, "Okay, well, if you want it from me, I know you're going to do it in me." So, he did. It was by his grace. But you know what? I was never looking at my watch. I was never thinking, "What do I do with 6 hours or 3 hours or 12 hours in the word and with prayer?" when you start to know him and how gloriously amazing he is, the Holy Spirit just with his sense of humor and the way he is and Jesus as the most wonderful grace filled truth filled teacher on the planet who loves us so much and loves being with us and teaching us and the father who has been just looking forward to this time where he can delight in his children. When you start walking in that and no longer being confused about your Bible because you know you know exactly well you're reading it and he shows you how to read it. He shows you how to understand it. He takes you through it. No more confusion. You're with the author. That's great. So when you get that and it took me a while to get there. I didn't start there. That's why I started at three hours. But I'll tell you people are going to have to pry you out of the secret place. You won't have to worry. God, I really mean to pray, but I keep on getting interrupted. If those interruptions weren't there, you'd be out in an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[33:30] Kristen Wambach Rick, there was a phraseology that you used that I'd like to unpack a little bit. You said in that when he was sequestering you, you said if you want it from me, then you have to do it in me or through me. We need to unpack that.
[33:54] Rick Osborne Okay, this is one of the main things that Jesus taught me in depth that a lot of the church... I don't know why, but we've kind of lost track of it. It's something that the early church and different branches of the church taught at times, but for the main sort of circles that you and I run in, it's kind of been forgotten. And that is what is the new covenant? Well, this one's by grace and this one's, you know, not this by law. Really? What does that mean? Where are the scriptures for that? Right. Philippians 2:12 and 13 changed my life. It says, I'm skipping the first phrase because Paul's talking about in his absence and in his presence. But he said work out, and the word there isn't works, isn't work out. In the Greek, it's bring to completion. Bring to completion your own salvation. What is our salvation? Being transformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ fully walking in the life of God in the life of Christ. Right? So much to unpack there, but he says bring your salvation to completion starting in verse 13. For. The conjunction's really important. For or because you can bring it to completion because he's at work within you causing you to want to do and causing you to do.
Are you kidding me? That verse has been there all along. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me because he's at work within me causing me to want to and causing me to do. God, I know I'm supposed to do that, but I just can't bring myself to do it. Well, get out of the new Get out of the old covenant. You are a partaker of the nature of God. He's inside of you. He's with you. He's your father. He's fathering you. He's Jesus, your master, your Lord, your teacher. He's teaching you. The Holy Spirit is taking what you're being taught and causing you. He's writing it on your heart. Paul is quoting from so many prophets there like in Jeremiah which is quoted in Hebrews 8, right? That in the new covenant, he will teach us from within. No one, it says no one will say anymore, know the Lord. Know the Lord, you know, get your Bible study done, those spiritual disciplines, you know, make sure you do the things. Make sure you memorize the Torah. He says, no one will say that anymore. For they will all know me from the least to the greatest. For they will all try to know me. For they will all struggle to know me. So they will all eventually know me. Some of them may not. No. For they will all know me from the least to the greatest. In other words, he's teaching us from the inside. He came back. He's one spirit with us. When we were in Adam, we were born in sin and we shared the Adam life. The curse, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We were born in that. Guess what? We became sinners because we were born in sin. Why does it shock us that now that we're in Christ and we have his righteousness that we wouldn't do the same thing but in the other direction?
We're partakers of the divine nature. And Jesus is our guarantor, which means just so much in the new covenant. He's our guarantor. Which means if you look in Timothy, 1 Timothy, the Bible says that he is the mediator, one mediator between God and man. And it says the man Christ Jesus. There is one God and one mediator between God and man. The man Christ Jesus. In other words, when you have a covenant, you usually have two mediators, one that represents either side. Jesus was both God and man. Therefore, he is our covenant. He is the mediator. And what he did on the cross is and this is why the Old Testament says we boy again just like this is so cool. Okay. In the Old Testament, God said, "I will be your God if you are my people." In other words, if you obey me, if you obey the law of do all these things, I will be your God. Which means I'll protect you, I'll heal you, I'll keep you, I'll do all of the promises. I will be your God if you're my people. In Jeremiah and in Ezekiel and all the prophets looking for the new covenant, he doesn't say that anymore. Looking for the new covenant. He says, "I will be your God and you will be my people." Hang on a second. No more if. No more struggle. No more if. No more if. He just made an eternal in Christ an eternal unbreakable covenant with us. And Jesus is a guar the mediator in the center between he turns to the father. He turns to us and says to us, I guarantee you that the father will be your god. My sacrifice guarantees it. All the promises are yours. Yes and amen. And he turns to the father and says, "Father, I got this. They will be your people. I'm going to teach them truth and grace. I'm going to love them. I'm going to walk with them. I'm going to take them from where they are and get them there. And he's your guarantor. And he hasn't gone anywhere. He's right there with you. I'm telling you this when you take the new covenant and you could write four books on it when you start studying it. The amount of what he's guaranteed to do like 1 Thessalonians 5 is 22 and 23 says that he sanctifies us wholly completely spirit, soul, and body. Right. Completely. In other words, we got it in our new creation, but he takes us there and that's in the body. That's complete healing and divine health as well. And when he makes this outrageous promise and then right in the next verse, it says, "And he who is faithful will do it." Doesn't say, "He who is faithful will do it if you do your part." There's nowhere in there cuz Jesus has taken on the responsibility of the new covenant to do our part in us and to release God to do what he always wanted to do is to be our father and let loose on us. People in the body of Christ, Kristen, and I know this is not you, but there's so many people in the body of Christ that just have like myself who just have had no idea how good he is.
I mean, think of it. Think of all the verses you know. Okay. Philippians 2 says that he who begun a good work in you will take it to completion. Yes. If you apply yourself, if you do this, if you do that, if you got all your spiritual disciplines in heroics, now I'm not saying anything about don't go to church and don't have spiritual disciplines and all that kind of. No, I'm saying you're not doing that to perform. You're doing that in your relationship with him. And he even works that in you. He's the guarantor. He said he'd take it to completion. And then think what Paul said to the Galatians. He says, "Having begun in the spirit, do you think you're made perfect in the flesh?" In other words, having begun by his motivation and his grace and his action, do you think that you're going to finish it? And yet so often we hear that preached. No, Jesus died for you. You really should do something for him. The verse after verse some of the the benediction in Hebrews, okay, says that he equips you with everything good for doing his will and works in you that which is pleasing in his sight. Do you know the word pleasing there is the same Greek word that Hebrews also uses when it says it's impossible to please God without faith. He works in you what is pleasing in his sight. He even in in Timothy it talk oh no sorry Thessalonians he says this the joy and faith that's in Christ Jesus. For so many years Kristen I struggled for faith like I got to have faith I got to I got to believe this I got to get my mind I got to then he showed me I have his yes it's his faith it's his faith all of a sudden I'm off the hook.
[42:41] Kristen Wambach Yes, it's his faith working in and through us. It's his faith.
[42:45] Rick Osborne He works it in me. I am a I am a man of great faith. Not because I did it. Cuz he gave it to me.
[42:50] Kristen Wambach He did. Yeah. So we don't have to pump up our arms and Yeah. There is this place that I amongst. You know, we have our places of habitations with him that he's really teaching them all, but we go into those little secret places and that we we sit with him for a period of time and some of them are longer than others. This is places. So, it's not the body us we we we say we know we know that God lives in us. He lives in our spirit. And some of us have grasp well our spirit flows into our body. It flows into our soul that there's a flow. But I guess the language the one of the thing is is that that place a lot of times I'll see that there is a wall between the spirit soul and into the body to into that body to allow that fullness that we know that is in us to flow into our body to change and eradicate the decay and the death that he so clearly overcame for us.
[44:07] Rick Osborne Amen. And again, something that just Jesus teaching us shows you, okay? It says he's one spirit with us. That's the connection. But the Bible says we are the temple of the Holy Ghost. God made you. Last time I checked, God made me spirit, soul, and body. I'm going to be spirit, soul, body all eternity. That's Rick. Spirit, soul, and body. Okay. He's one spirit with me. That's where the connection is. But the Bible clearly says Jesus said again quoting from Isaiah 55 and the prophets and everything like that and you start looking what where he's quoting from the picture gets huge. Okay. And you really understand it. But the fountain of living water. Well, let's go with probably a lot of your audience understands the river. The river of living water flows out of you to everybody else. Is it flowing just out of your spirit? Is it just or are you consumed with it when it happens? Was the temple when the cloud came on the temple, did it fill the temple, the walls, everything else like that, did it fill the temple? We're filled with all the fullness of the godhead bodily just like Jesus was. Colossians 1 and Colossians 2. Say it. Okay.
So, and the other one is he says there's a fountain inside every there'll be a fountain inside of every believer. A fountain that springs up to eternal life. That's the fountain that's in our that's where we have the mind of Christ. That's where we have the health of God. That's the sanctification. It's for too long we haven't understood things like healing and divine health and and even having the mind of Christ and the body of Christ. So we've done this thing to sort of make an excuse of not seeing any of that happening by saying it's just your spirit man. Just your spirit man saved. Sorry. In the garden of Eden, God said with the day you eat of the fruit, you will surely die. Right. They stepped they spirit, soul, and body stepped outside of the father. They died spirit, soul, and body. When God came to talk to them in the garden, he didn't say, "Adam, when you die, you're going back to dust." He just said from you are dust and you will return to the dust. Cuz they were already dead. spirit, soul, and body. When we're born in Adam, we have just this life here on this earth that the breath is keeping us going. That's not the life of God. In Ephesians, Paul says that we are alien before coming to Christ, we are alienated from the life of God. That's what happened in the garden. They were alienated from the life of God. Not just in the spirit, spirit, soul, and body. That's why healing is ours. That's why the mind of Christ is ours. We've got to renew it. We've got to go from glory to glory. But we have the life of God. The whole fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelt in Jesus. Dwelt in him bodily. Bodily mentioning body. And we are complete in him. And I love what Colossians 1 says because Colossians 1 says that it was the father's delight or good delight. The Greek word there is wonderful that the all the fullness of the godhead bodily would dwell in him. Then you go into chapter two and it says and you are complete in him. Why was the father delighting in that? When Jesus came back from here, he was going back to be one with the father, right? Why was the father delighting that Jesus was filled with the whole fullness of the godhead bodily? Cuz he knew he was going to exchange places with us. Yes. And the reason why he had that was cuz the father was looking forward to it being in us. It's like boom.
So this idea when the Lord start when you start letting the word interpret the word, you know that plan A has never changed. He's always been looking forward to us in Christ and all of these other things. You start understanding and studying the word of God the way Jesus demonstrated every time he taught it and quoted from it and all the it's there. Like I could write books on this. Every single time he quoted from the word of God, he wasn't just teaching something. He was teaching you how the word works. And when you do it his way, the understanding, the spirit of wisdom and revelation goes along with the correct interpretation. And it just starts changing you. And that's why I was weepy boy for 10 years. Because get this people, there was nothing not a thing he taught me that didn't change me. I'm being transformed into the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. I was a people would have called me a man of God with signs and wonders and stories and all that kind of stuff and books and that all that stuff before I went into the 10 years. I came out a totally completely different person at that 10 years. And that's why I was weepy boy because the spirit of God in me every time he taught me changed me. And I'll tell you, you want that. You want that with all your heart. Cuz can you imagine? Let me It's one thing I like saying saying to my people, can you imagine love, joy, peace, fruit of the Holy Spirit? You know what that means? The nature of God. It's the fruit of the spirit of God being one with you. In other words, it's yours. Your love, joy, peace. You are love. Can you imagine living 24/7 with your internal atmosphere including your thoughts and your emotions always being love, joy, peace? That's one thing that we have. And yet we argue about well the fruit of the spirit is that your spirit or the holy spirit or how does that work? And I got to remember to be patient and you know don't pray for patience because you know Yeah. Don't pray for patience because yes his patience the patience of the almighty God that Jesus walked in is yours. You have to learn to walk in it and he teaches you. And when you start doing that your life changes from the inside out. You're marked forever by the spirit when you allow the spirit to do what he's there to do, which is transform you.
[50:40] Kristen Wambach Thank you for giving us a taste of what the workshop will include. Would you tell us again how to connect and sign up for the workshop, please?
[50:55] Rick Osborne Okay, you go to hear God's voice.com. Heargodsvoicenow.com. Now, it's free. I do want to add a caveat there because I'm always upfront about this stuff. It's free. It's also going to be on my YouTube channel, so everybody can watch it there for free. But if you sign up, you get alerts when we go live, right? If you register, you get alerts when we go live. You also get we're creating the ebook from the webinar as we go with all my notes and all the speaking and stuff like that. And everyone who registers gets a copy of that so they can walk away with it. They can continue to watch the videos cuz they're on YouTube. But you can walk away with the some people like to have it there with the notes and everything like that. Now we have a just like YouTube channels do. We also have a what we call behind the curtain where all of our students are and the people who want to go deeper and all that kind of stuff and they're going to be getting the worksheets for every single day. They're going to get more out of the thing, right? And that just requires somebody signs up to our behind the curtain, right? And that's not expensive and you can quit anytime. It's a subscription. So that's 20 bucks a month. But not everyone's going to want to do that, right? Most people are going to want to hear me the first time around and see, you know, check that out later. And I'm completely okay with that. So, it's totally free. 10 weeks. We start August 7th. All you got to do is get the link and come to the YouTube channel and watch it. Watch it live and it's recorded. And on the YouTube live channels, you go, I can't show up at noon Pacific every Friday. I'm working or I'm in a different time zone. Right? That's okay. It's recorded. Just keep up because it's a course. So, number two builds on number one. Number three builds on number two and number one. It's a course which is the way Jesus taught me to teach cuz he says and he said it to me this way. He says the whole idea of buffet style learning. He invented learning. The fact that we randomly learn a bit of this and a bit of that and a bit of this and a bit of that. He says my children need to understand the foundations and move so that they get it right. So I always teach in a course. So, you want to hear all 10 episodes, be there. So, man, I'm just thankful that you had me on and I would be pleased to welcome everybody who wants to come and join. Tell your friends it's YouTube. We got lots of room.
[53:26] Kristen Wambach Thank you.
[53:29] Rick Osborne It's also I should say it's also on Rumble. Live on Rumble and YouTube's on YouTube, but we also flow to Rumble.
[53:38] Kristen Wambach I'm doing my listening here. I'm listening for that because I sense that there's another deposit of confidence and courage and I'm trying I'm listening to what a listener would be asking like if they were asking me or you Rick and say we have so many been there done that walk through it been there done that walk through it been They're done in that walk through it. And the Holy Spirit just wants to reach out to each individual and say, "Trust me on this one. Trust just trust me on this one." Because that trust, that's the power of him inside of you. Yeah. And would you pray for us one more time for that confidence that I won't put any more parameters around it?
[54:50] Rick Osborne Well, in the workshop, we're going to give out homework and do activations as well. So, this is not just listen to the sermon and go and forget it by Sunday night. This is a course and I'm giving you the stuff you need to actually practice because the Bible tells us to practice our faith, but we get to practice it by grace. So, that's a wonderful thing. I teach you how to do that as well. So, I'm going to be giving you the Bible verses. I'm going to be giving you the book at the end. I always say this to my students. I'm the small tea teacher. Jesus said to his disciples who were expecting to be the rabbi next after him because that's the way the system worked. He announced and he says don't call anyone rabbi. You have one. And you can see Peter and James and John going, "What do you mean?" The reason why they were fighting with each other all the time about who was the greatest is because it was which one of them was going to be the primary rabbi when Jesus died because that's the way the system worked. So they're arguing over that and Jesus all of a sudden says, "By the way, guys, I'm not going anywhere." Jesus told his disciples when he's on the earth, "It's better for you if I leave cuz the father's sending the Holy Spirit." There was through the Holy Spirit, he's teaching us every single day. And so I always let my I didn't know this would stick when I first said it by the spirit. I said, "I'm the small tea teacher. He's the big tea teacher." I said, "My job is to teach you how to learn from him. I'm supposed to put myself out of a job." Right. And I said, and ever since then, of course, my students call me little tea teacher. I didn't know it was going to stick, but it's always a constant and great reminder. But that's what I'm going to do. Yes. This is why the depth of teaching through the word is going to help you understand it. my confidence and my trust every time I teach is that even before coming on here I said Lord Jesus thank you the teacher you use my mouth but you're writing it on their hearts you give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation and I'm trusting God for you to hear to know to understand because the teacher is right there with you so that you come out of this and I give you the tools that you need so that you come out of this with your life changed, not knowing more information. Like in our school too, it's like this is not about information cuz my 10 years with him was not about information. There's a lot of information in revelation, but it's for the purpose of transformation. That's what we do. That's what we're all supposed to be doing, right? So hopefully that as well as the prayer gives you some confidence that this is different. And I know because before my 10 years I taught the other courses on hearing his voice and I saw people change and blossom and stuff like that but now understanding the fullness of it I see people blossom in the fullness of it. So that's what we're doing.
[58:01] Kristen Wambach
Yes. Let's pray.
[58:02] Rick Osborne
Can I pray what I feel the spirit of God is showing me to pray?
[58:06] Kristen Wambach
Yes.
[58:07] Rick Osborne
Okay. Father, first and foremost, I know there's a lot of people that are hearing me that won't necessarily come, but you still love them so much. And I'm just asking, like Kristen just asked me to do, I'm just asking that you would take them to the next level. that you would take some of what they learned here today with some of what they heard and bring it to you and that you Lord Jesus would just start to teach them and their level of confidence in hearing your voice would go way up. Their level of understanding of the new covenant would go way up. Lord, in 2 seconds you changed my life with Philippians 2:12 and 13. You can do that right now with a spirit of wisdom and revelation. And everyone who hears this, Lord, I ask that from this point forward, they would sense you with them, teaching them, instructing them like you did with me, cuz it wasn't special. You were showing them what you want to do with all of your kids. And I trust you for that, Father. And those that you know are going to benefit from this, just give them a little nudge. Bring them along. And Father, I know that you're going to cause me to be faithful to teach what you've given me to teach and their lives will be changed. We trust you for this, Father. And a blessing on Kristen as well. I thank you that she does this. She faithfully does this. This is what you've asked her to do. And she's spreading your word. And I, Father, I just sense your absolute undying love for her and see the big smile that you have on your face for her. I thank you for her and for her husband and her kids. And I just ask, Father, for another level of blessing and revelation on her whole household in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Yay. Yay.
[1:00:08] Kristen Wambach So, I encourage you listeners, as I always do, just remain in that pregnant pause. Just remain there. Don't rush it. Allow him to continue to speak to you. Rick, thank you so much for sharing and dumping. I love it. I love it. This has just been a tremendous honor. Thank you for joining us.
[1:00:36] Rick Osborne Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it and I honor you. I honor you for having me and for doing this.
[1:00:42] Kristen Wambach You are most welcome. My goodness. You know, I love those pregnant pauses. I encourage you just to remain right there. Don't rush it. Just stay in the moment. Allow Holy Spirit to continue speaking directly to your heart. There is nothing more important than doing that. Now, let's lock in the supernatural wisdom we just unpacked today. The struggle is over. Amen. You do not have to perform to hear from God. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant that guarantees you are his people. The guarantor has signed his name to it. Amen. He is the big T of the teachers. You have the life of Christ inside you. He is at work within you causing you to desire and to actually do his will. That power is in you for that to occur and to happen, to transform, to change. The fruit is yours. You do not have to beg for patience or joy. You don't even have to pray for patience or joy. You are a partaker of the divine nature. Meaning his patience and his joy are already yours. His joy is already alive 100% in you. Amen.
Here's your action step. Do not miss out on Rick's free ultimate Hear God's Voice workshop. It is an interactive 10-week course starting August 7. That's next week. streaming live on YouTube and Rumble. He is giving you the practical tools and homework activations to walk in a continual everyday conversation with the father. Go secure your spot right now at heargodsvoicenow.com. And yes, I will have all those connections available to you in the show notes. I realize some of you are driving now. May you walk confidently this week. Confidently and bravely knowing that the father absolutely delights in you. He has a big smile on his face just looking at you. And if you're driving, he's sitting right there in the passenger seat. Yes, he is holding your hand. He's taking you from glory to glory. Step boldly into the kingdom knowing you are deeply loved. Until next time, this has been such a treat. I encourage you to live spiritually brave. Bye now.

Righteousness, Peace, and Joy: Decoding the Signals of God's Presence ❖ 295
The River, The Referee, and The Voice with Rev. Dr. David Chotka
Transcript with speaker names and timestamps :
Kristen Wambach (00:01.849) Welcome. What happens when an expert in biblical scholarship steps out of the seminary classroom and into a decades-long journey of learning how to discern the gentle tap on the shoulder from the Holy Spirit? Think about that. What happens?
You get a man who doesn't just study prayer. He lives out in the raw, messy, everyday moments of life. Welcome to Interviewing Jesus Podcast. I am your host, Kristen Wombeck, and today we are looking past religious performance and high-tech church formulas and programs to explore what it practically looks like to hear the voice of Jesus. Let me ask you this.
To hear the voice of Jesus today for that situation, circumstance, that love hug that you are just so hungry for. What does that look like in the middle of your normal Monday morning all the way to Friday night? What does that look like? Joining me today is author, international speaker, and founder of Spirit Equipped Ministries, Reverend Dr. David Chatka and David holds a doctorate from Gordon Cronwell. He taught leaders across six continents and studied under giants like Gordon Fee, but more than his degrees. David carries raw personal stories of miraculous healing, navigating heavy grief, and learning how to sift through the noise of life. To recognize when the Lord is getting your attention. Get ready to simplify the supernatural. Can I say that again? Get ready to simplify the supernatural. Drop the religious routine and live spiritually brave. Welcome to the show, Pastor David.
David Chotka (02:11.103) Well, I that's very impressive in pr introduction. You actually pronounced my name correctly. And so I'm very thankful for that. And you know, I'm just an ordinary guy. We hear all that funny stuff about who I am. It's it's almost embarrassing. At any rate. Yes, I I I I I've studied hearing the voice of Jesus for a very, very, very long time, and I think it's the most important spiritual discipline. In fact
Kristen Wambach (02:15.786) Woo.
David Chotka (02:37.715) I believe that it's the primary spiritual discipline that Jesus of Nazareth practiced all through his and if you get this right, the rest will fall into place. If you don't get this right, you're gonna be stumbling and bumbling and fumbling and mumbling. And
Kristen Wambach (02:42.730) I agree. I agree. Yeah.
Kristen Wambach (02:51.834) Yeah. And we're here, David and I agree, we're here to just erase that hopscotch path of bumbling and stumbling to help you. So jumping right in, David has provided us with a fabulous resource. It's his number one best selling book. Hey, are you there? It's me, God. What a perfect title. You offer a practical guide for recognizing when God gets our attention. We're putting the links to your book and Spirit Equipped Ministries right there in our show notes. So turn in your ears, people, because I have taken really good notes for you, making it easy for you to connect with Pastor David. But right now, I want to take us past those published pages and into that quiet room where we just listen and hear Holy Spirit. David. Take us into that exact second when you stopped running on that religious routine and felt that gentle tap on your shoulder for the very first time. What did that very first time?
David Chotka (04:01.569) Very first time. listen. The first time I got it wrong, the second time I got it right. So the first time when the Holy Spirit tried to talk to me, I was just a young man trying to f to get a job, to pay the bills, that kind of thing. I was a university student, new to the Lord, and my was a first believer in my family. And I remember the moment I was trying to get work and I had lined up working with a great big organization. I had slam dunked the interview. I'd got the I did the interview in January for a May start as you know for for summer, that kind of thing. And two weeks before May the first arrived, I got the phone call from the company because there was a big depression going on in the economy. The job was gone and I couldn't have that job. So I remember panicking. My parents ran a diner. We had enough to eat, but there wasn't enough to pay me a real living wage or to make savings for future education and that kind of thing. And it was a really kind of how do I say this? The scripture says if a man doesn't work, neither let him eat. And I was eating and I was working in the restaurant, but I wasn't making it enough to be able to pay for my future education or things like that. And I remember this moment. So I was in the restaurant working away with my parents, and I was, you know, I had two jobs at that point. Here's what it was. Number one job was trying to find a job.


Kristen Wambach (05:15.962) Okay.
David Chotka (05:18.209) Because the scripture says you need to work. The number two job was helping my parents in the diner during rush hour, right? So I was doing I was doing that and this customer came in. And in those days, you had to have a resume typed out on a piece of paper. You had to shine your shoes. You had to have a white shirt, had to look attractive. You know, you had to comb your hair the right way. I haven't got any hair left, but in those days you had to do this. And I was but in the diner, you you have an apron on, you're serving customers, you're taking orders. This guy always came in at the same time every day. He came in for 10:30 for coffee and 1:15 for my mother's homemade soup. So this guy's name was Stan, and I'd known him for years, and he'd watch me work. Anyway, he looked at me and he said, David, I heard you lost you the opportunity to go to work for that big company. I said, Stan, it's terrible. I won't be able to go to school if I don't earn the money. And he said, Well, I can't offer you a good job, but I could offer you a minimum wage job. And there was at that point in my city, it was a General Motors city.


Kristen Wambach (05:59.910) Yeah.
David Chotka (06:12.811) And there was layoffs happening, twenty two and a half percent unemployment in that city at that time. It's the what we call the rust belt now. Anyway, nobody was hiring anybody, and this guy was offering Miss Job. And I What is it? He said, It's delivery truck driving. Would you do that? And by the way, it was delivering pantyhose and greeting cards. Now you want you to know it was store to store, not door to door. Okay, you need to know that. Anyway. So this guy offered me this job and he said, Look


Kristen Wambach (06:17.583) Hmm.


Kristen Wambach (06:37.221) Separate like opinios, yes.
David Chotka (06:41.047) F for this to work, it's simple. You just go to this address, you walk in and you you just sign the form with the work form. You have to be bonded for three months if you're gonna take this job, because I have to know that when I train you, I got three months of work coming out of you. And I said, Okay, that's good. And so my father looked at me and I looked at him. He gave me the keys of the car, I started to drive. And here's what happened, and this was the defining moment where I first recogni I didn't recognize it the first time. As I was driving along the road, my peace vanished. I went from being joyful and bubbly and happy and delighted. And as I was driving along in the car, I began to feel uneasy at first and I thought it was nerves, you know, and then all vestiges of joy and peace and my walk with Jesus was distracted and I couldn't think straight. And I show up at this address, and there's a big red brick building with Ivy all over the the sides of the building, and there was a loading dock with a small door. And I walked up to this company and I knocked on the the loading dock door and there was no other doors that I could see. And I looked around and there was nobody who answered the door. I got back in my dad's vehicle, having not succeeded in getting inside that building. And I drove back. And as I drove away, the peace returned, the joy returned, the laughter returned. And I thought, my dad's gonna think I'm an idiot. I couldn't find the door to get into I wonder if I got the address wrong. So I walked back into the restaurant. He said, Well, son, when do you start? I said, Dad, I couldn't find the front door. I will not tell you what my daddy said. It would imperil your sanctification. But he was not impressed. He was not impressed. So so here's what happened. That was the 10 30. Then the guy comes back for soup in the afternoon. And he said, David, you didn't come to the to the shop. I said, Stan, it's the craziest thing. I I saw a loading dock. I saw vines on the Did I get the address wrong? And he started to laugh. He said, no, no, I should have told you. You got to go all the way around to the back of the building, and the vines have overgrown a trellis, and you got to go around the trellis to get to the office. All of our business is by phone and by by work order. So that's where the office is. I said, okay. My dad gave me the keys, and I started to drive. And as I was driving, once again my spirit turned to lead. Now I didn't know that was how God speaks. I had not a clue. I got myself to the place where that where this place was. I walked into the back door. I found the trellis.
David Chotka (09:00.651) I went inside and there was a lovely secretary, middle-aged lady, English accent. She looks at me and said, you're Mr. Chotka. here is the work order. Mr. Shepherd said you have to sign here and you can start tomorrow. And I held the pal the pen in my hand and I almost threw up. I mean, it was that uneasy. And because the scripture said, if a man doesn't work, neither let him eat. I signed the form, I forced myself, I got back in the vehicle, I drove home. And here's what happened. I was supposed to start when he came for his coffee the next day at 10 30. He was going to bring the vehicle. We're going to drive over. I didn't sleep that night. I felt awful. I felt terrible. And the phone rang first thing in the morning at eight o'clock in the morning when the company opened. It was another job for the Department of Highways offering twice the wage with a return policy and a health care package and a dental care package. And I had given my word to a family for So with great reluctance, I said no to the other job because I'd given my word and I I I I did this thing. And then the Lord called me to the ministry. That was the first time I realized that God doesn't always speak with, you know, a vision or a dream or a scripture leaping off the page. It was, it was no peace. My my presence to the spirit was completely gone. But the second time was the fun one. Okay. So this is two weeks later. Two weeks later.


Kristen Wambach (10:20.183) Okay.
David Chotka (10:21.261) Okay, so I had I was going to three different Bible studies because I was a brand new Christian and I wanted to learn scripture as much as I could. I couldn't get my nose out of the Bible. So I went to it, I went to a Tuesday noon, a Thursday noon, and a and a fr a Thursday night. There was a Friday night prayer and praise and then church on Sunday morning and Sunday evening. I was doing that because I wanted to learn the Bible. Anyway, in three of those studies, the theme was the same: tithing, giving 10%. Now I was a cheapskate and I didn't have any money.


Kristen Wambach (10:45.115) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (10:49.933) But you know, three different studies. And I remember saying to the Lord, I don't want to give 10%. What are you going to do with my money? Eat it? You know, God, you don't need money. I need to eat. You don't need to eat. What's the big deal? So I get to the third study, and I have just said to the Lord, What do you I need to eat? You don't need to eat. I I so God, what are you gonna with why I why should I give you money? And I walked into this study and I sat down with the guy who was the it was a brethren elder, he was teaching, and I said, What's this thing about practicing the tithe? He said, What are you gonna do with the Lord's money? Eat it. So here's what I did. I started to set aside, I had a part-time job and I had my diner with my parents, and I'd just begun at this company. We're paying the minimum wage. I put the 10% inside an envelope and there wasn't much there. Anyway, after a few weeks, I got to $120 in the tithe fund. That's what I had. And I didn't know about the hot the storehouse. I didn't, I was so new to the Lord, I simply didn't know.


Kristen Wambach (11:34.521) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (11:48.271) Yeah.
David Chotka (11:48.481) So I remember though feeling prompted that I should give the money away because it was God's and I'd spend it if I kept looking at it. So I knelt beside the bed and I said, God, who should I give the money to? I belonged to a Bible study university, and there was a couple going to go overseas. They were going to go to Southeast Asia and they had to clear up some debts to get there. And as soon as I knelt, I thought of them. It was a Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon. You need to know this. Friday at four, that detail is really important.


Kristen Wambach (11:59.173) Mm.


Kristen Wambach (12:17.679) Mm.
David Chotka (12:18.016) So as I prayed about what I should do with this, I said, Well, Lord, I don't want to give the whole bunch away. how about 110? And I'll have a little 10 bucks left or something. And the only thing I can say that happened next was the piece diminished and got smaller. And I felt in my spirit that I was to try again and it was supposed to be lower. I said, 109, and the piece got bigger. And then I said, How about I give Derek and Deb 108 dollars? And suddenly the fire of the spirit rose inside of me. The joy exploded. And I jumped to my feet and I said, Yes, yes, yes. I'm going to give Derek and Deb 108 bucks. You gotta know something. I was I was a I was a tightwad. So this is a miracle. And I even wanted to do this. So I took a scripture verse, and I my God shall supply all your needs according to his riches and glory in Christ Jesus. I shoved it in an envelope. I put $108 in cash. And at seven o'clock that night, I got myself over to where Derek and Deb lived. I've been to their home many times.
Kristen Wambach (12:58.159) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (13:18.060) They didn't. So here's what happened. The porch light was burned out and it was it was dusk. It was getting it was getting dark. And I snuck up to there and I opened the mailbox, put the money in, quietly closed it, and I ran away because I didn't want them to know I was giving them money. Right. It was Friday at seven o'clock when I did this. Anyway, two weeks later, I'm curious. I really want to know what's going on. Cause I gave 108 bucks to Derek and Deb, and they were friends, and I used to walk my dog up and


Kristen Wambach (13:25.083) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (13:32.730) Right.


Kristen Wambach (13:40.571) Uh-huh.
Kristen Wambach (13:43.961) And that was huge. That was huge.
David Chotka (13:45.487) Yeah, I used to walk my dog up and down that street. It was three blocks from my friend's home. So anyway, I was walking down the street hoping that Derek and Deb would see me. I kept walking up and down. Derek stuck his head out and said, Hey David, David, come over here. Our God has supplied all our needs according to his riches and glory. We just had a miracle. And I thought, man. And I was feeling so smug. my heavens. It was obnoxiously smug. And I go into this place and he sits me down and I said, What happened, Derek? thinking that, you know, I'm I'm, you know I'm I have knowledge he doesn't have. And he looks at me and he said, David, two weeks ago, on Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon, my wife and I made the decision that I would have to finish my degree. I was shy two courses before we went to Southeast Asia. We both worked at that hotel over there. They pay Wednesdays on the 15th and 30th. And the 30th was the fifth was going to be the Wednesday night. And the course was to begin on Monday. And we had to pay it in cash, and we couldn't get either of our parents on the phone. We had fuel in the car, we had food in the pantry, but all that we had was $50, and the price of the course was $158. So on Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon, we knelt down and said, God, would you raise up someone to give $108 in cash to us? So that we can pay for the course that we have to pay for on Monday, so I could complete my degree. And here's what happened: I snuck up in the mailbox on Friday night. I put it in. Of course, no mail happens on Saturday. And so they spent the whole weekend not looking in the mailbox. And the money's sitting in the mailbox. They're crying out to God. They're praying. And on Sunday afternoon, the man gets assurance in his heart that the money was there, it was going to be taken care of. He says, I we don't still don't have it, we don't get paid till Wednesday. And as he was going out, he decided that he would write a check for the whole amount, even though he didn't have it. He opened the mailbox and found the money and was exact. Now I'm sitting in the room and I realized two things. Number one, they had a need at Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon and they prayed. Number two, I heard that I was to give to them $108 in cash, and it was specific, and the Lord wouldn't let me give 110 or 109.


Kristen Wambach (15:55.513) Hey.
Kristen Wambach (16:01.083) Yes, you did. Okay.
David Chotka (16:05.218) He made me give him 108 bucks. And the thing that was amazing to me, I heard it precisely and I got it completely correct. And I obeyed and I received joy as I did that. I also learned that sacrifice is part of service and that God would supply. All that came together in those two moments, one where I failed and the other where I succeeded. And so began the journey of attempting to understand.
Kristen Wambach (16:17.551) Yes.
David Chotka (16:33.368) How God speaks. And here is what I learned through those two events. God's primary instrument of speaking is the increase and the withdrawing of his presence. And it's mediated by righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Now, listen, I believe in miracles. I believe in angels showing up and giving you divinely appointed guidance. I believe in prophetic utterances, and I believe in miraculous divine, you know. angels appearing and telling you what to do and that kind of thing. I believe the star moved in the sky for the magi and that the big angels appeared to Mary and Joseph and told them they're going to carry the Messiah and the burning bush happened for Mo when he was hearing the voice. And those events are real and from time to time they happen in current current current life. But I believe that the primary means by which God speaks is the increase of the withdrawing of his presence and there are scriptures that speak to it.


Kristen Wambach (17:21.263) They do.
Kristen Wambach (17:29.827) Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Chotka (17:31.082) I usually go to Romans fourteen, seventeen, and I go to Colossians three, fifteen. Now do you want me to unpack that or you want we you got a different question for me?
Kristen Wambach (17:35.685) Yeah. Actually I I wanted to I wanted to piggyback on what what you said, the 'cause some we have a lot of people that have different learning applications, different teaching way that they understand what is being spoken. So when I hear that and in my experience the drawing and the increasing of the spirit literally changes like a vibration within my body. So I w wanted
David Chotka (18:07.340) You know
Kristen Wambach (18:08.185) to point out the different ways that tangible touch or or sometimes you know you can feel you can feel the spirit over the top of your head. There's so many different ways that you can sense the spirit increasing or decreasing. And it doesn't mean that Holy Spirit went anywhere, but it's from within you like if you just you know, walked briskly back and forth down your street, your b blood pressure would be going and if you checked your pulse, it would be increased. So it's the same type of thing when you feel the spirit increase or di decrease.
David Chotka (18:50.786) Yes. Now here's the issue. there have been times where I've felt something and I was wrong. And there have been times when I felt something and I was right. And so, and there have been times when I have had a bias. You know, let's say for example, I don't know about you. I am always at odds with some politician somewhere sometimes. Okay. And sometimes people that I love say something bad and I believe them, and people that I distrust say something good and I don't trust them.
Kristen Wambach (18:56.153) Hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (19:20.236) And so there's this process of trying to know how God is speaking when. And here is the principle that I teach in the Hey, Are You There It's Me God book. I say, number one, I won't teach something unless it's clearly in the scripture. And whenever I tell a story, I will anchor it in the scripture. And by the way, here are the marks that the scripture says what it feels like when the voice speaks. Now you just named one right there that I hadn't considered here.


Kristen Wambach (19:24.634) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (19:28.206) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (19:45.547) If you think about Luke 24, where the two disciples on the first resurrection day are going down the road. Of course, you know, listen, if if you lose someone, do you pray? Well, the answer is, of course, yes. What do you do if your God is dead? I mean, your God is dead. And these two guys were walking down the road on two days after the crucifixion, day number three has just started to dawn. They're going down the road and they they can't talk to their God. And so they're talking to each other.


Kristen Wambach (19:57.391) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (20:00.822) Mm.
David Chotka (20:16.556) And Jesus of Nazareth shows up. You know, and they have this vibrant
Kristen Wambach (20:18.329) Yeah. But y I mean we could jump in there. Why is it that they thought they couldn't talk to him?
David Chotka (20:25.068) Well, because he was dead. He had they hadn't he th this is the first resurrection appearance. It that he'd been crucified on Good Friday.
Kristen Wambach (20:29.059) That's right. They hadn't experienced him as spirit.
David Chotka (20:34.262) Yeah, well, they they were in desolation on Saturday because they didn't know what was going on. They're in anguish, they're in hiding, they're walking down the road on day three, and they don't know it. But Jesus of Nazareth is beside them as they're talking. And so here's what now this is a very, very important text for for for discernment. This is a very important one. So they walk down the road. He's sharing scripture with them about the two things the Messiah was supposed to do. He was supposed to die, and then he was supposed to rise again.


Kristen Wambach (20:38.436) No.


Kristen Wambach (20:46.437) Yes he is.
Kristen Wambach (20:58.743) Mm. Mm.
David Chotka (21:01.674) And there were two Messiah theories in Judaism. There was a suffering servant material that you find in in the servant songs in Isaiah, particularly Isaiah 53 or Isaiah 49. You have this language about sure man of sorrows and acquainted with grief and so on. And you have Jewish scholars saying, Is there going to be one Messiah who suffers? Is that Israel who suffers? What about this conquering this conquering guy who's gonna raise the righteous dead? And and they they didn't understand.


Kristen Wambach (21:04.955) Hmm.
David Chotka (21:31.747) That those two Messiah scriptures were actually one Messiah. And so Jesus starts to explain to these two guys, Cleopas and his friend, whoever he was. And as he's talking about this, that it's evening, they're supposed to walk short because it was a Sabbath day. He looked like he's going to go away. He they invite him in for dinner. He breaks the bread, and suddenly they recognize that it's him and he vanishes. Now, then they say this phrase. Now, this is the important phrase for discernment. They said,


Kristen Wambach (21:56.101) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (22:00.107) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (22:01.912) Did not our hearts burn hot within us while he was speaking to the script from the scriptures to us along the way. So there's four marks that show up in that passage that have to do with hearing the voice. One is the is the heart of flame, the burning heart. And so that's a classic mark of evangelical Methodism. was not our hearts strangely warm, is what John Wesley said when he got saved. The second thing is he was speaking about.


Kristen Wambach (22:20.250) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (22:27.875) Yeah.
David Chotka (22:31.528) Scripture while they were experiencing this internal testimony or witness of the Spirit with a heart of flame. Thirdly, it pointed to Jesus. And fourthly, two guys experienced it at the same time. Okay, so you have four marks of what it means to hear the voice together. The internal fire, the scripture, pointing to Jesus together.


Kristen Wambach (22:32.751) Mm.


Kristen Wambach (22:45.477) They did.


Kristen Wambach (22:51.983) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (23:00.450) That's amazing. Now that's one of the scriptures that I unpack in the book, Hey, Are You There It's Me God book. The other ones that I think are really important to bear recognize. Now, scripture has all kinds of accounts where it says the Lord spoke. You know, God appeared to Abraham and God spoke to him, or God spoke to Moses, or whatever. And we have this external observation thing, but we don't have very many scriptures that speak about what it feels like inside the internal breast of the believer. And so the study that I did in my doctoral work.


Kristen Wambach (23:12.937) I know.
David Chotka (23:30.572) was to look at each of the scriptures that spoke about what it felt like and then try to give language to describe it so the Georgian average believer doesn't think they're idiots or or recognizes when this is happening to them, right? So
Kristen Wambach (23:46.588) Share with you an experience similar, unique to that. So years ago, God pointed out a house for us for John and I, a house for us. And you know it's like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, are you sure? And da-da-da-da. And where he came in and actually confirmed it was his. Is that all of our very dear friends and community started having dreams about our house? They had dreams about them being in our house. They could describe that house to us. It was the coolest thing. That community, what'd you call that? You called the the the the the together. We talked about it briefly.
David Chotka (24:31.724) Yes, now you
David Chotka (24:36.738) Yes. I I do believe that discernment, hearing the voice of Jesus, is always better when there are multiplied witnesses who are saying the same thing. And here's the reason why. Every now and then God will speak through someone that I don't like and I will disregard it because I don't like it. Yeah. Or listen, every now and then somebody that I love will say something dumb and I'll listen.


Kristen Wambach (24:47.055) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (24:54.696) W Really? we could we could hang out on this one.
David Chotka (25:05.614) Because I love them, right? And so here's what you need when you're in the middle of the discernment process. I was speaking to a youth group about this, and of course there's young girls and there's young guys and they're looking at each other and they're trying to figure out whether or not the pink cloud is going to descend and cause their heart to thump. Anyway, what I said to them is if you're trying to discern something, you and you need somebody unbiased in this matter. So if you're going to ask the girl out, don't pray with the boyfriend.


Kristen Wambach (25:13.743) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (25:29.868) It's not gonna work. There's bias there. This is not a helpful thing, right? And so here's the here's the bottom line. You always need to make sure that when you're in the middle of a discernment process, that you are recognizing that everybody's got biases. Everybody's got sin patterns. Everybody's got e issues. Everybody has people that they love who are unwise, and everybody's got friends who they don't like who are wise. And every and now every now and then you're gonna get hoarse sense from a good friend.


Kristen Wambach (25:34.821) Goodness.


Kristen Wambach (25:55.291) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (25:59.009) And that's a marvelous thing. Horse sense. Yeah, God, God speaks through horse sense. And by the way, God spoke through Balaam's donkey, too. And so the bottom line is you don't need to be a Bible scholar to hear the voice. God spoke through Balaam's donkey. And by the way, Pharaoh, king of Egypt, was not a Bible scholar. You know, he he wasn't. And God spoke to Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and raised up a slave boy to tell him what was going on. And actually, at that point, Joseph didn't have a Bible, right?
Kristen Wambach (25:59.814) Horse since? Hor did you say horsein? Okay. yeah, yeah.
Kristen Wambach (26:12.367) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (26:26.681) Yes. No.
David Chotka (26:26.744) There was no Bible because Moses hadn't been born yet, and he wrote he wrote the first five books. By the way, God spoke to Nebuchadnezzar, and by the way, God spoke to the king of Nineveh, you know. I have to tell you something. When Jonah went to Nineveh, he didn't want to go because Nineveh's people had fought his people, and he probably had relatives get killed by that guy. He hated Nineveh. And God wanted to speak to someone he detested. And so
Kristen Wambach (26:36.869) Yes.


Kristen Wambach (26:46.715) Probably.


Kristen Wambach (26:53.819) Yeah.
David Chotka (26:54.122) In the discernment process, when we are attempting to hear the voice, God may use you to speak to someone you detest because the Lord's calling all of us to know him. God is calling all of us to walk in righteousness, and God is calling all of us to walk in radical forgiveness, and he's calling us to love our enemies. He's calling us to do that. When it gets to the practical application of how this works.


Kristen Wambach (26:57.659) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (27:01.444) No.


Kristen Wambach (27:14.958) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (27:18.434) You need to make sure that you are putting multiplied testimonies alongside yours and that none of them are directing you away from the clear teaching of Scripture. And so you need to be word saturated and you need to be spirit infilled. And you need to be in submission to other people who are Bible saturated and spirit-in-filled. In fact, there's three foundations in Jesus' ministry. He was number one Bible-based. He was number two prayer saturated. And he was number three infilled by spirit and led by spirit. And when when guidance comes, it will include all three elements before you are directed into what it is that Jesus wants you to be, do, or become. And it doesn't matter if you start with the Bible while you're praying, or if you have an experience of the Spirit that drives you to prayer and you find a scripture, or if you are led by the Spirit to a scripture while you're praying.


Kristen Wambach (27:58.349) It will.
David Chotka (28:13.324) It doesn't matter which one is first. All three of them will be the footsteps that will lead you into hearing the voice. Word, spirit, and prayer in combination. Those three spiritual disciplines. And here's what I have discovered. It is very easy to train the Bible. You can get six thousand studies on any kind of book of the Bible off your phone if you need it. But there aren't many books that train people to listen to the spirit. And there's only a few.
Kristen Wambach (28:20.015) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
David Chotka (28:39.960) That actually give people steps to pray when they're reading about prayer. And so we need to train what it is to be prayer saturated. We need to train what it is to be spirit-led. And we need to train what it is to be Bible-based. One of them is taken care of beautifully. I don't need to write books on Bible-based. But the other two, we don me not have much. Now, the culture we live in isn't prayer saturated. The culture Jesus was born into.


Kristen Wambach (28:44.303) Yes.
Kristen Wambach (29:00.643) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Pastor David. Mm-hmm. Yes. They did.
David Chotka (29:09.910) He prayed, Jews prayed three times a day. And Jews memorized scripture. And so Jesus was Bob Nazareth, was born into a prayer-saturated, Bible-believing culture. The only thing that was missing was being spirit-led.
Kristen Wambach (29:20.261) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (29:24.227) Yes. I am the type of I am the type of person and you described it in your eloquent points there is I usually have an encounter, you know, I feel the spirit and I'm showing something in the spirit, and then I'll go, Hello, excuse me, can you explain that please? And then I will be directed to Jesus' humanity and the experiential part.
David Chotka (29:25.336) So he gets in for it.


David Chotka (29:45.570) Yes, exactly.


Kristen Wambach (29:53.561) that he lived that says this will help you understand what I just showed you.
David Chotka (29:59.725) Yes, and so what I look for, and I honestly when I'm trying to discern the voice, I am not settled until I have word and spirit and a communal affirmation of word and spirit that is identical to what I've received. Every now and then you haven't got time to wait for that and you have to stick your neck out. But usually when you're in a discernment process, trying to understand what God is saying, you can take your time. Job A, job B, job C. Church A, Church A, Church C. Do I move to this city? Do I stay here? do I go to that university or this college? what about job you know, th these are the things that are before most people most of the time. In fact I just had to I just had to make a decision.
Kristen Wambach (30:40.795) Question for you because I have a story rumbling around in the back of my head, but your original story that you told about accepting this job, yet the the next day, a different offer that was more prosperous came round. How did God work you through that? I mean, you gave your word to a gentleman, and did you did you continue on with that?


David Chotka (31:03.906) Yes, I did.
David Chotka (31:07.680) I kept my word and I was short the money that I needed to go to school. Here's what the Lord did. when I got I got called to seminary, and when I got called to seminary, I realized that there was actually a a two friends of mine that had moved from my hometown just north of Niagara Falls to the city of Toronto where the seminary was. And they said to me, You can stay with us just for the cost of your food. And so other friends sacrificed and God paid the bills. You see what I'm saying?


Kristen Wambach (31:37.647) Yes, he did.
David Chotka (31:37.827) The original intention was that I would receive more than enough with an offer to be to be able to come back to work the next year with a med thing and dentist thing and that kind of stuff was all in that package. And when I kept my word, he honored that, but other people sacrificed so that I could get there. Then I found a part time job four hours a week, and the four hours paid for my food, and I got myself through that year. And then the next year the Lord opened other doors. There was


Kristen Wambach (31:52.431) Yeah.
David Chotka (32:03.202) There was a scholarship that came to me and there was a bursary that was for students from my region and so on and so forth. And I actually left seminary not owing a dime. And that was now I didn't own anything. I didn't have a stick of furniture. I had bought my first car, you know, on credit because my daddy co signed that kind of thing. But you know, I didn't I got to the place where the Lord met my needs. And this is the most incredible thing. Jesus I wanted that seminary season.
Kristen Wambach (32:11.653) Good.
Kristen Wambach (32:27.323) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (32:30.774) was a season of testing and endurance and suffering and learning to give and so on. I wound up becoming a national director with the Renewal Society, but in the middle of it, I was as broke as broke could be. And in order to become that director, guy didn't know this. I went to a renewal rally. I was sitting in the renewal rally where they were talking about the Lord and talking about generosity and talking about giving. And they passed out commitment cards and they said, you don't have to have the cash in hand. But can you trust God to put the money in your hands to give to us? And I made a commitment in those days. This is a big commitment. 20 bucks a month over and above everything because I had no money. I was broke as broke could be. And other people were paying my freight. And I remember getting letter of the Lord to sign that card, and I did. And I sent the card off to them. And every month I would say, Okay, Jesus, I need that 20 bucks. Where are you going to send it? And one day I didn't have it. It was the last day of the month.
Kristen Wambach (33:02.682) Yes.


Kristen Wambach (33:09.691) Mm.
David Chotka (33:27.468) And I had just enough to pay for my food. And I sat down on a park bench in a busy traffic area next to the bus stop. And while I was sitting there, I looked down and underneath the park bench was a twenty dollar bill. I picked up the twenty dollar bill and I said, I'm gonna use this for rent. And the Lord said, You gotta keep your word. And I popped the twenty dollars in the envelope and I sent it to the Renewal Society. And what I didn't know was that God had a plan. The next year.
Kristen Wambach (33:41.701) Yay. Yes, yes.


Kristen Wambach (33:55.725) Yes, he did.
David Chotka (33:57.303) I became a national director with the Renewal Society, and the precondition for it was that you have one year of consistent giving. They wanted their board members to be consistent givers. And I had paid twenty bucks a month for a whole year. And then I wound up going to this renewal meeting and somebody nominated me from the floor and I became a national director. Anyway, that's
Kristen Wambach (34:04.731) huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm an Yeah.


Kristen Wambach (34:19.886) I'm


David Chotka (34:20.748) This intertwined thing about discernment, obedience, and yielded submission to the voice is just intertwined with everything I think, say and do.
Kristen Wambach (34:25.623) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm gonna just share because all those those learning and and and allowing the the ebb and flow, we learn the spirit within us. The very first time I wasn't a new Christian, but I was what what I would classify as new baptized in the Holy Spirit, right? just tongue talking, fire, breathing, just I've got so much to learn. Help me, Jesus. And I had, we were living in Aurora and we had a small farm there. And I had four sons under the age of six. So as a busy person. And we were going to a Bible study, my husband and I. And so at this Bible study, one of the leaders took me out into the garage and she was selling this really cute kitchen cabinet. I mean, it was darling. It was so cute. I just loved it. It looked like me and my heart just wouldn't leave alone. And I remember going home and asking God and I never asked him for something that felt alike. You know, I like this. This feels like me. This this feels I and you know we're we're raising a small family. That wasn't something you put on the table. And I remember


David Chotka (35:47.330) Four boys is not a small family.
Kristen Wambach (35:50.756) And she wanted she wanted 800 bucks for that. It's kind of like, where would we squeeze the eight hundred bucks? And and it felt sacrilegious for me to ask God for money, especially for something that wasn't, you know, groceries or diapers or any of that stuff. And so I did. I just went, I I just feel God, like this is important between you and I. This is a personal moment. So I asked God for the money for this kitchen cabinet. And a couple weeks later, I'm doing something in the house, dishes something, and I get a knock on the back door. And I open up the the back farm door, and there's this guy there in well-used uniform clothes, and he was from the railroad, where our our original farm lived, right on the switch track. For the railroad because the farm was put there before 1873 when the train came through. So he walked up to us and he said, You know, we're coming in, we're redoing the tracks and the line there, but we need a di debris pile. Would you happen to let us put a debris pile on your farm for you to burn? And guess how much he was willing to pay us?
David Chotka (37:12.684) Go. Yeah. Exactly.
Kristen Wambach (37:14.657) Eight hundred dollars. Eight hundred dollars.
David Chotka (37:18.284) Actually, I haven't thought this story is not in the book. This is a fun one because here's what happened when I was I was a seminary student. And I needed so I'm a Greek scholar and I have you have to you have to have a a book called The Bauer Bauer Art Gingrich Danker Lexicon, which is you just wouldn't even know what that is. Most people don't care, right? But if you don't have it, you can't do your research. And it was a it was an expensive tome back in the day, and it was
Kristen Wambach (37:22.391) Okay. Uh-huh.


Kristen Wambach (37:41.836) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (37:46.447) Yeah, it was that one of these thick things that only some niche scholar would have to have or you can do study the Greek. And I remember I no, because all the other students had bought up the used copies, right? And so and I don't I don't have the money to do it. So here's what it was. I remember walking into the bookstore, and I still have the Bauer Art and King. I still have it to this day. And in those days it was 3795. And that was like about a hundred and thirty bucks, 140 bucks now, right?


Kristen Wambach (37:50.427) And you can't find it used anywhere.


Kristen Wambach (37:59.420) Kristen Wambach (38:04.197) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (38:15.842) Very expensive volume, and I didn't have the money. And I remember I had to give my 20 bucks to this organization, and I did. And it meant that I couldn't purchase the Bauer Art and Gingrich and I was gonna always have to go to the library and hope the other students weren't using that volume. It was in the reference section. You couldn't check it out. Everybody had to have access to the same volume. That meant that I had to organize my study times around a very narrow window, and it was hard to do.


Kristen Wambach (38:23.771) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (38:41.499) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (38:41.942) And of course I was working and I was trying to do my papers and so on. So so I said, God, I need the Bauer art in Gingrich. It's thirty-seven ninety-five. I need the Bauer. I said. Now it was not something I wanted. It was something I needed for me to be able to succeed in my courses in studying the you know, the Gospel of John in Greek. That's what it was. Introductory Greek is usually the Gospel of John. It repeats itself.


Kristen Wambach (38:50.819) Ha ha.


Kristen Wambach (38:57.733) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (39:02.245) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (39:08.142) by the way, it repeats itself. Anyway, getting back to this. So I remember the moment I prayed the prayer and I walked in to the coffee lounge in the school, and there was an envelope in the mailbox. And I grabbed it and it was $37.95 inside the envelope to the change to the penny. And then I said, Lord, I believe in practicing the tithe.


Kristen Wambach (39:12.921) That's good.
Kristen Wambach (39:29.187) Yes. Come on, Jesus. Uh-huh.
David Chotka (39:34.511) And so somebody wrote a note, said, The Lord has told me to give these to you. I have practiced my tithe, and the tithe goes to you today. It was $37.95. That was the exact price of this book. So I start walking toward the bookstore and I realize, I haven't paid the tithe and there's tax. All right. So I so I said, Okay, God, here's the tithe. And I took the tithe off with me. And I didn't have enough to pay for the book. And I walked into the bookstore.
Kristen Wambach (39:43.130) Yes. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (40:03.788) And they were having a sale. And the bookstore had the book on sale. And when it was all calculated, I had enough after I paid my tithe to pay for the book and to pay for the tax. And it was to the penny. I mean, this is the Lord. He does what he does and he guides as he goes. So there's this thing called crying out in the middle of distress. But there's this, there's this other thing.


Kristen Wambach (40:05.700) Yes.


Kristen Wambach (40:21.868) He does.
David Chotka (40:29.250) Where you need to be aware that there is there are signals when God speaks. His tap on the shoulder comes like and he the anchor texts that I use for this are found in in Paul's writings. The first is Romans fourteen, verse seventeen. It says this. And I don't know if you know this, the book of Romans is not really centered on justification. Justification is an illustration of the primary theme of the book. The primary theme of the book is that Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians were arguing and not fellowshipping together.


Kristen Wambach (40:34.159) There are
David Chotka (40:59.948) And I'll tell they had such varied backgrounds. One would and they were arguing about eating and drinking. And so after Paul goes all the way through the book and says to the Jew first, also to the Greek, you both got to get justified by grace through faith. And by the way, you gotta get infilled by spirit. That's chapter eight. And then nine to eleven is about Jews and Gentiles and how they relate to each other. By the time he gets through all of that, you come to chapter 14 and he says this. Would you guys please accept each other?
Kristen Wambach (41:14.703) Yes. Yes.
David Chotka (41:29.288) Stop the fighting. And then in verse 17, he gives he gives the code to hear the voice. He says this the kingdom of God is not about the things you're fighting about, eating and drinking. The kingdom of God is about three things: righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Now, let me define them. Righteousness is a sweet walk with God.


Kristen Wambach (41:55.608) Okay.
David Chotka (41:58.735) Peace is internal serenity and joy is internal celebration despite external circumstance. Now, if something distracts you from Jesus, that's God saying no. If your peace leaves, that's God saying no. If your joy diminishes, that's God saying no. If while you are praying through something, the peace rises, your joy increases, and your walk with Jesus becomes focused. Odds are that God is talking to you.
Kristen Wambach (42:27.275) Yes. Yeah.
David Chotka (42:28.748) Now you need other people to tell you as well because we have biases. But my favorite one on this one is to go all the way to Colossians chapter 3, verse 15. And this is where the doctor work came in healthy, came in handy. There is a phrase in 315 that goes like this: Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called into one body. The word rule, let the peace rule. I circled that word.


Kristen Wambach (42:36.921) Mm.
David Chotka (42:55.926) And I went into that Bauer art art gingrich danker and I went into Bolton. I did I did the research on this, and here's what I discovered. That word was always used for people who were making decisions that were important. It was used for referees in a sporting match. It was used for arbiters in business decisions.


Kristen Wambach (42:59.323) yeah, you had the book now, yeah.
David Chotka (43:20.694) And it was used for judges who were trying to weigh facts to determine whether or not the person making their claim was telling the truth or telling a lie. And so when you when you put that understanding back into Colossians 3:15, it says that Let the peace be the determining factor in your decision-making process. Let the peace be the judge that tells you yes or no. Let the peace be the arbiter. That sifts and discerns the decision. Let the piece be the referee that tells you if you're in or out of the game. Here's how it works. When the piece, well, when the piece waxes large, that's the referee saying it's fair ball. When the piece diminishes, that's the referee saying you're on the edge of a penalty. If the piece vanishes, he's saying that's a penalty kick. That's you, you you cross the line. Now.
Kristen Wambach (43:59.398) That's really good. That's really good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (44:20.536) Here's what it boils down to. If we can understand that the peace of Jesus is to rule, then our battle is to abide in the presence so we can be conscious of the peace. And while we are in our decision making processes, the presence rises or diminishes and it rules in our hearts, but it calls us into one body. So here's what it means it doesn't just say one person gets the peace.


Kristen Wambach (44:31.632) Yeah.
David Chotka (44:46.988) I listen, when when guys look at pretty girls, they always have peace. Even if the character is terrible. So when girls look at pr handsome guys, it's the same thing, they always have peace, right? But when the day is done, it doesn't say you have it by yourself. It says let the peace rule in your hearts, plural, to which indeed you were called into one body.


Kristen Wambach (44:53.817) You're gonna do with you, yeah.
Kristen Wambach (45:11.717) Mm-hmm. Literal. Mm.


David Chotka (45:16.386) The intention here is that you are mutually submitted to people who are people of peace, and you all together cultivate an awareness of the presence of the Spirit of Jesus, who mediates his presence by the increase or the withdrawing of his peace, and that's how God works.
Kristen Wambach (45:33.564) Good. Yeah. Pastor David, I'd like to put this into a practical application. I I am going to pull that one, the the how your description of the righteousness, peace, and joy, the way that you pulled it from the word rule. People, I'm gonna pull that out. That text will be present because it it is so well spoken and easy to be entreated. So easy to hear. Thank you for sharing that with us. So For the person listening who feels like God is distant because they haven't prayed enough, read enough, all those legalities that we put on ourselves, how can they activate that oneness with Jesus right now in the in the simplest of ways? You know, right where they're sitting, if they're driving their car to the to work, and we just don't want any more performance. We just want to feel that presence. Would you help us with that?
David Chotka (46:33.506) Well yeah, straight up here's the bottom line. The question you have you asked is not a simple one, it's a complex one because the person might be in a sin pattern, or the person might be in the wrong fellowship, or the person might not know that there's a post to experience, the person might not know the Holy Spirit, the person might not be aware of X factors that are getting in the way. If the piece withdraws, something's wrong. Now listen, I don't know what your spiritual gift mix is. Every Christian gets a different gift of c selection.


Kristen Wambach (46:57.859) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (47:01.591) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (47:03.048) I am principally a teacher, in case you didn't notice. Not even I just called my admin to get to order my books on Amazon because I didn't know what I was doing, right? Anyway, getting back to this. so I all of us have different gifts, but every Christian has as his or her heritage, righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Kristen Wambach (47:07.547) Really?


Kristen Wambach (47:22.885) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (47:27.373) Easy to wait. Yes.
David Chotka (47:29.386) Every Christian, I don't care if you're just getting started, if you're as mature as the day is long. I don't care if you are whatever your denominat is, every kind of Christian is guaranteed those three factors. And the apostle constantly prays that those three things would increase in every Christian life. So if it's not happening, you stop the car and you ask this question Is there something that I need to be doing to get myself back to the place where the peace is restored?


Kristen Wambach (47:46.619) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (47:58.701) And so you you look at your sin issues and you and now if you if you've made a clean slate and there are no sin issues that you're conscious of. If there, by the way, if you're if you're a lion to your boss, you better repent of that. If you are in a position where you're trying to hide something and you don't want to face some issue in your life, you better deal with that, et cetera, et cetera. So this is a more complex answer than I would. It's not just this a quick little fix. You do a fearless moral inventory to determine whether or not there's a barrier between you and God on sin issues. If there's none there.
Kristen Wambach (48:20.827) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (48:29.400) Then you need to see whether or not your church is feeding your spirit. You need to be in fellowship with other believers who understand that the Holy Spirit imparts righteousness, peace, and joy with the Holy Spirit. And by the way, you're not going to be satisfied until it returns. If you are not reading your scripture the way that you need to, then you need to make a fresh commitment to return to saturating your heart and mind and soul in the scripture. But I will say this I don't want to give you a reading program.


Kristen Wambach (48:40.505) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (48:58.358) What I want to do is to have you encounter the Lord while you're reading the text. And if one verse does that, park on that verse while the waves of the Spirit's presence and pleasure rule over you. Okay, now here's the bottom line. Reading programs help, and I use one myself. In fact, I I my my I have seven markers in my Bible. Here's what I do when I read the Bible. I read the I read the Law of Moses. I read
Kristen Wambach (49:09.211) Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.


Kristen Wambach (49:25.989) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (49:26.846) Histories, I read the writings, I read the prophets, I read the gospels, I read the epistles, and I read the the pastoral epistles in Revelation. I have seven markers in my Bible and I read all of them quickly and I narrow in on one text that I soak in. And I let myself be saturated with that one text while I am aware of the great overview of the great themes of scripture. If I don't do that, something's wrong. I will be distracted.


Kristen Wambach (49:34.491) Mm.
David Chotka (49:56.877) So listen, if your righteousness is distracted, you ask this question. Jesus, what is distracting me you from your presence? It could be a relationship, it could be the job you're in, it could be some circumstances that are beyond your control. If if your peace is gone, ask the question. Jesus, what is it that is getting in the way of my godly walk with you that produces peace? If you if you are have no joy in the middle of what you're doing, ask the question, Jesus, show me.
Kristen Wambach (50:21.903) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (50:25.804) The quick fix is read the scripture until you encounter those three things. Get yourself to a godly fellowship where you're surrounded by believers who understand those three elements and let yourself be part of a praying small group cluster that will not be satisfied until you all of you together are understanding that God is speaking to you.
Kristen Wambach (50:49.057) Absolutely. Absolutely.
David Chotka (50:51.886) That's a complex answer to a simple question, but I it's not a simple answer. No one one, two, three, now you're free thing with this. There's there's there's a whole series of complexities in every life. And you know this. You just told me about having four kids and not having time to breathe. There are other ladies out there, they got four kids too. And some of them got six and seven.
Kristen Wambach (50:56.409) Mm-hmm. Mm mm.
David Chotka (51:13.568) Right. And they're trying to get to church and they're trying to pay their tithe and they're trying to read the Bible. And the kid throws up while they're reading the scripture. Right. And then they have to clean up the mess and they don't get their time in. So listen, ever there's somebody else who's a business executive and he's got three contracts on the line, and one of them is tenuous, and he's trying to talk to this one guy while the other two are wondering where his service is. He wants to do the job, he tr he wants to get it done. And the complexities and the stress of his business are are making him


Kristen Wambach (51:22.598) yeah.
David Chotka (51:43.084) have no margin to do what he wants to do to serve Jesus. These are very different lives, but they're real. So you have to create your own spiritual rhythm around the rhythms of your own life.
Kristen Wambach (51:49.207) Mm-hmm. They are.
Kristen Wambach (51:55.769) Ooh, I like the way you said that. That was lovely. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (51:57.995) Here's the reality. I remember somebody said you got to have a morning quiet time. Well, before 10 o'clock in the morning, that doesn't work for me. So so later on, and then sitting still to pray. No, I gotta walk. No, I had a buddy who said he couldn't do a morning quiet time and he couldn't he couldn't think clearly until 11 o'clock in the morning. And by the way, he couldn't sit still. And so he would take a Bible verse and he would go for a walk.


Kristen Wambach (52:01.947) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (52:11.983) There yeah.
David Chotka (52:25.504) And while he was walking, everybody would leave him alone. He would reflect on the Bible verse and he would talk to Jesus while he was walking. That was his devotional life. Other people need silence. They got to sit still. They don't want clutter. They don't want noise. So they gotta try, they gotta shut the door and hide in the prayer closet. Somebody else can't worship because they can't sing to save their soul. Well, you can put a worship tape on and listen to the music of somebody else who's gifted while you would labor it, making a joyful noise.
Kristen Wambach (52:35.631) That's great. Yeah.
David Chotka (52:55.820) You listen, you create your own rhythm, your own pattern, but it must be consistent. You want consistency in your devotion. So I would say to anybody who doesn't have consistent devotion, I want you to make me a promise. Can you give God five minutes a day? I'm not looking for five hours. I'm looking for five minutes. When they say, Well, I can always do that, then I'll say, Well, five minutes won't be enough.


Kristen Wambach (53:01.701) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (53:14.843) Mm.
David Chotka (53:24.834) But if you promise God you're going to give them five minutes a day and you can be consistent, make it the same five minutes. Which five minutes will it be with expandable time? And they'll tell me I can do that at seven at night, or I can do that at six in the morning, where the number happens to be. I said, now listen, can you expand half an hour? And they'll look at me like they just don't believe it's possible. Their eyebrows will push their hairline back. Okay. Then I'll say, Listen, if you get this part right. The habit is more important than the time. I want the habit. Can you promise me and can you promise the Lord you're going to give them five minutes a day at the same time each day with expandable time up to half an hour? And if they say yes, I will say, All right, now that you're going to give God five minutes, what Bible book are you going to read in case you run out of words? Or they'll say, Well, I don't know. I'll say, Well, why don't you start with something that's simple?


Kristen Wambach (54:15.748) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (54:21.484) Linus and Christmas story. Luke chapter two. Start with Luke. It's stories. And go Luke and John and Acts in a row. And give God five minutes. And if you run out of things to say, read the scripture and then pray what comes out of the scripture. I can do that, Pastor. Well, listen, why don't you get a devotional book and put it beside you too? There's all kinds of good ones out there. Sarah Young's great, you know. And and if you want to go old, if you want to go old school.


Kristen Wambach (54:27.131) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (54:37.925) Yes.
Kristen Wambach (54:44.030) yes. Yes, she is.
David Chotka (54:48.524) You can go my utmost for as high as Oswald Chambers, right? If there's okay. There's another one. Okay, that there's there's fifty of them. Pick one. Okay, pick one. Okay. So here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna give God five minutes every day at the same time. You're gonna read the devotional book, you're gonna read the Bible, and you're gonna tell God. And here's what they will discover. For the first week, they will struggle with five minutes. And in the second week, five minutes won't be enough.
Kristen Wambach (54:51.205) There we go. Or streams well, streams in the desert, that's another good one. I know. I know.


Kristen Wambach (55:07.642) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (55:18.454) And it'll be seven or eight minutes. And in the third week, they're going to discover that one day they're so fascinated by what they're reading and praying, and they're so caught up in the majesty and glory of God, they're going to go half an hour. Now it's going to be a one-off the first time, but then they're going to go back to five minutes the next day and they're going to feel like they wolfed a sandwich instead of had a feast. But at least they got the sandwich. The kid's going to throw up or the phone's going to ring and the business executive is going to have to leave his devotional time to take care of the client.


Kristen Wambach (55:28.165) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (55:37.211) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (55:46.723) But the he can always do the five minutes. He can always do that. And so when you develop against the grain a habit that is consistent for every day at the same time, in the same place, with a plan B, and you have a Bible, you got a devotional book, and you're talking to God, by the time you get to the end of a month, you'll be praying 15, 20 minutes, half an hour, and then there'll be days when all that you can do is praise him.
Kristen Wambach (55:50.137) Always. Yeah.


Kristen Wambach (56:01.083) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (56:15.183) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (56:16.078) Establish the habit. And the habit always now here's what's happened to me. I usually pray 45 minutes to an hour a day. Sometimes I go as long as three hours. And every now and then life gets away from me and I am required to do five minutes. It feels like I'm wolfing a piece of pizza while I'm on my way to a meeting. But but at least I got the nutrition and God is God is five minutes. And my habit


Kristen Wambach (56:32.379) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (56:44.314) Yes.
David Chotka (56:46.806) It makes me yearn for more. So you create the devotional habit so that you can fill the habit with the glory of God. That's called Yes, but you gotta have banks for the river to flow. And so the banks for the river is the habit of five minutes a day.


Kristen Wambach (56:49.701) That it does.
Kristen Wambach (56:55.919) Yes. So those rivers of living water flow. Ha ha ha
Kristen Wambach (57:08.844) Yay. Pastor David, would you do us a favor? How can again, how can readers or listeners connect with you and hear more about because you have several books. Yes.
David Chotka (57:21.846) Yes, I do. I've been talking today about the Hey Are You There, It's Me God book, which is which actually is a six week process, five days a week, to teach people about twenty five different ways that God speaks. The way you can get that, you can just Google my name, Chatka, but listen, that's hard. If you go, if you take the word Holy Spirit and take the word spirit, you take the word equipment and cut it in half and just put the word equip, put spirit and equip together. Spiritequip.com. That's my website.
Kristen Wambach (57:25.113) Yes, yes. Uh-huh.


Kristen Wambach (57:48.229) There we are.
David Chotka (57:48.311) And there you will find ways to invite me to your church. I do three-day seminars. In fact, I travel internationally and I give away resources at no charge. I'm going to be going to Nigeria in about three weeks. And I'm going to be giving two of my books away to seminary students who have nothing. And so my ministry, for its charitable purposes, equips the poor and the persecuted church. And people can donate if you want to do that. I have an American thing and a Canadian thing. And I travel to churches and I teach and do local events.


Kristen Wambach (58:00.186) Wow.


Kristen Wambach (58:05.168) Mm-hmm.


David Chotka (58:17.698) But you go to spiritequip dot com and you will find everything that I've written and all the links.
Kristen Wambach (58:23.289) That's wonderful. Thank you. Now, we had talked about this briefly before, because my listeners know that I love the call to action. I love the prayer. I love the tangible where in the spirit you are literally exchanging the culmination of what you've shared with us today. But the interesting thing is I asked Holy Spirit ahead of time, well, what does this look like? Do I And I felt more of like of a prayer, like maybe part of the banks of the river. And I'm sure that you will change it. But this is the scenario that I heard from Holy Spirit. This special request. This morning, Jesus shared with me a profound metaphorical picture. I see a well-seasoned gardener pushing a single-tired wheelbarrow across a field. The load in the wheelbarrow consists of a person who was curled up sleeping or being carried in the hands cart. There are two perspectives of prayer here. I feel our listeners can place themselves. The first one is maybe they are the individual in the wheelbarrow and they need to be carried in this season of life. And the second one. They find themselves as the seasoned gardener doing the pushing and caring in prayer and intercession for loved ones around them.


David Chotka (01:00:02.473) Yes, and what are you asking me?
Kristen Wambach (01:00:05.691) I think that's the the prayer picture, the metaphorical picture. Would you pray for us? Would you release the anointing that's upon your life for hearing God, for for hearing a teacher? Because you you are teaching us, and we need to take what a teacher says and be able to assimilate that into our life.
David Chotka (01:00:31.790) Now listen, the one who's in the wheelbarrow and the one who's pushing the wheelbarrow both need the same thing. Both of them need to be aware what God is saying to them. And if the person in the wheelbarrow is worn out to the place or in grief or just devastated because something in life has caused them to be in that place, they need to know that God has not abandoned them. And if the intercessor who is carrying that person as they're bearing their burden for another is doing this, he's going to grow weary. That person or she, that person needs to know that the Lord has given them a word to carry them for a season, but it's not going to be forever. So here's the prayer I would pray for both people in the wheelbarrow, whether they're the one carrying this thing or whether they're the one being carried. Lord Jesus, the prayer I would pray is that you would impact Heart and awareness of how you speak to both of them. For the one it's Sabbath rest until they're well, for the other it is pace while they do their ministry. I would pray that the one who is receiving the intercession and the one who is carrying the burden would know beyond all knowing that the peace of Jesus is increasing and leading them into fullness of life. Let the peace rule in both sets of hearts. And let them understand together that God has placed them in this circumstance until they know that the assignment is completed in Jesus' name. Amen.
Kristen Wambach (01:02:06.967) Amen. Thank you. I could feel the expanse of peace that you released. I could feel that. And yes, listeners, I always say this. Hang in that pregnant pause. Hang. Pastor Dave went over and over again to share with us about letting it marinate. So allow that to marinate the tangible touch of Jesus encouraging you. Hmm. Pastor David, thank you so much for sharing your your valuable wisdoms with us today. Your unique sense of humor. my goodness.
David Chotka (01:02:58.488) I love to laugh. I laugh when I pray. And every now and then Jesus teases me.
Kristen Wambach (01:02:59.896) that's good. And so does Yes, he does. He does. And we at his kids, we make him laugh. We make him thank you for joining us today and sharing with us just your valuable wisdom. Thank you.


David Chotka (01:03:12.162) Yes.


David Chotka (01:03:19.518) It's been a delight and I hope that your listeners are all blessed as they partake and learn the word and grow.
Kristen Wambach (01:03:26.009) Yes. Amen. 

🎙️ Official Broadcast Transcript

​289 GOD What am I Missing- with Heather O’Brien

Chapter 1: Introduction to Inner Healing and Spirituality(00:00 - 04:18)
Kristen Wambach (00:02): What happens when a believer who knows all the right spiritual language, serves faithfully, and smiles from the front row is secretly battling a roaring tiger of anxiety inside her own living room? Today, we are pulling back the curtain on the silent epidemic facing Christians who love Jesus deeply but still feel completely stuck. Get ready to move past safe church theories and step into a practical, Spirit-led path of raw, permanent breakthrough. Welcome to the Interviewing Jesus Podcast.
Kristen Wambach (01:01): Welcome back. Today, we are engaging in a conversation designed to simplify the supernatural and strip the performance out of our inner healing. Come with me today as we strip away the performance out of inner healing. Our guest is a Spirit-led healing coach, Bible teacher, and the host of a globally top-ranked Heal with God Podcast. She's a spiritual investigator of the heart who went from hiding an internal battle with trauma and fear on a church pew to answering a direct, whisper-quiet commission from Holy Spirit: "Will you purify my bride?" Please help me to welcome the wonderful Heather O'Brien.
Heather O'Brien (01:55): Yeah. Wow, thank you so much. I'm like, man, I'm gonna write this down. That was a beautiful bio. You're so eloquent.
Kristen Wambach (02:09): Yay, yay. So just to let you know, listeners, we have been partaking already. So just jump into the water. The water is fine. Don't you just love running into a kindred spirit? And it is so easy to commune and have that conversation. So I honor you, Heather, for bringing that to the table today.
Heather O'Brien (02:22): Come on. It is good. It really is. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. I've already asked if you'll be my new weird best friend. I'm like, it's hard to come by someone who is in love with Jesus and doesn't think it's weird.
Kristen Wambach (02:53): No, not at all. Not at all. Yes, yes, yes. In our jumping in, all right, we've already dove into the pool. Now we can just hang out and ask some really good questions.
Chapter 2: The Struggle of Emotional Pain and Spiritual Performance(04:19 - 06:36)
Kristen Wambach (04:19): So, listeners, I know that you can relate with me on this: the exhausting good Christian. Okay? That paradox. We know scripture while privately experiencing a visceral, daily emotional overwhelm or numbness. Like, sometimes doesn't it just slap you in the face when you put your feet on the carpet in the morning? You just feel overwhelmed. Heather, you've shared so vulnerably that for years you knew the right spiritual language and you served faithfully, yet you were privately fighting cycles of emotional pain that you couldn't break. In our culture, there's a heavy, unvoiced shame around being a mature believer who is still secretly terrified or stuck. How do we help the person listening right now? How do we help ourselves? Let's just include ourselves into that conversation right now to dismantle the religious performance mask so that we can finally admit to ourselves and to God that we really need deliverance.
Heather O'Brien (05:26): Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of us Christians, we know something's wrong. That's not the problem. We know that we've just had an anxiety attack. We know that we've been crying and we don't know why. We know that we're overweight, we want to lose weight, and somehow we can't. We know that we—I mean, we know we're stuck. We know that we're praying and yet we're stuck. And so addressing the problem is not really the issue. We know there's a problem. Maybe saying it out loud is part of the problem. But the real thing is, it's not awareness. The problem is you don't know what to do with what you're aware of.
Kristen Wambach (06:04): Ooh, that's good right there. Can you say that again, please?
Heather O'Brien (06:08): Yeah, the awareness is not the problem. The problem is that we don't know what to do with what we are aware of.
Chapter 3: The Importance of Effective Prayer and Hearing God's Voice(06:37 - 11:43)
Heather O'Brien (06:37): We have been praying prayers. The struggle is we keep praying the same prayers. And I might hit a chord here for you for just a minute. Like, a lot of people know how to pray. And a lot of people I'm talking to, even among my students—I think it was the other day I was just talking with a student—she was telling me the beautiful prayers that she was praying. They were eloquent. They were scripture. Yes! But also, how are they working for you? And that's where we really have to kind of say, "Huh, I haven't really analyzed that. I'm just gonna do it because this feels like the right thing to do. This feels like the right prayer. This feels like the right scripture. So I'm just gonna keep praying it."
The moment that I really found the best help for myself and for other people is when I stop and say, "How's that working for me?" and just really be honest. Can we be honest for a minute? That prayer's not working. It might work for some other people. For instance, I was helping this one student, Emily. She wanted to know how to get free of this one struggle in her life. And that one struggle didn't make sense because all the prayers worked for every other struggle. She had all these kinds of addictions in her life; it was just crazy. But why wouldn't this other addiction go?
So I said, "Well, what prayer have you been praying?" And she said, "Well, I just asked God to take away that desire." Huh. And that actually worked for all of the other addictions, but not this one. And so doesn't that just ruffle your feathers just a little bit? Like, God, come on! What the what? And so I just had to plainly say, "Well, how's that working for you?" And she's like, "Well, it's not." And I'm like, "Okay, so can we do something different? Do we have permission to just start fresh here?" Prayer is the answer. Hearing God's voice is the answer. Talking to God is the answer. But sometimes He wants you to say something different.
Kristen Wambach (09:13): Amen. Amen.
Heather O'Brien (09:14): And so knowing the something different is the struggle. That's why we're stuck—we don't know the different thing to pray. And so we're continuing, basically, maybe it's like what Jesus said about babbling. He says, "Stop babbling." And I think sometimes our prayers are babbling because we're just repeating and we've got the repetition going on. And you know what? It's not working. He really wants an effective prayer. Prayer's just communication with God. And so if it's not effective, what's the point? It's like me and you just babbling. I mean, I want to get to know you. But if I already ask you where you're from and I keep asking you, "Well, where are you from? Well, where are you from? Well, where are you from?"—I mean, that's gonna get old at some point. I'm not gonna be interested in this conversation anymore. I don't think God checks out; He's way more patient than we are, but He would like a different question.
And so that's when—I love how you introduced me, you said the Spirit-led investigator. I'm like, ooh, I might need to put that on my badge right here! But that's where we can be an investigator that says, "Okay, when did this start?" We assess the situation. What's really here? What am I feeling? What am I believing whenever this thing happens again? So maybe your struggle is procrastination. Okay. Instead of just saying, "God, help me to quit being a procrastinator," how about you think about, "Well, God, when am I procrastinating? Around what?" Is it house cleaning? Is it doing that menial task that you don't want to do, like laundry or dishes? Are you procrastinating going to the dentist? Are you procrastinating going to your annual visit? Like, I bet it's more specific than you've ever given yourself permission to even think about. So when you think about it and you assess the situation—not to condemn, but to really investigate—ask: "When am I procrastinating? Is it just around certain tasks, or is it around certain people? Is it around certain times of the year, or certain times of the day?" Because when you start assessing the situation, you can really find out, "Okay, I can ask God a few more questions, like, why am I procrastinating this particular thing?" And then you start digging a little bit deeper. We can go from there. You can ask me some more questions. I know I've been like yapping for a hot minute, but—
Kristen Wambach (11:07): Yeah. There were a couple of things that seemed highlighted in that, Heather. So when we take the word prayer, there are some connotations there that we should probably just shake off. You know, if we open up the box of what we thought prayer or that communication with God is—how we've done it before, how we were taught to do it, how our parents taught us to do it, or what we understand—let's just open up that box, take the word prayer out, and allow it to be refreshed. Refreshed. And then the other word that seemed to be in this box that you were opening up was that word permission. I love that word. I love that word. And I get into that place where—the times that I know that prayer word, that conversation word, that listening architecture in my own spirit—I have to go, "Wait a minute." And I go, "Holy Spirit, I give You permission to communicate this to me."
Chapter 4: Permission and Conviction in Healing(11:44 - 16:09)
Heather O'Brien (11:44): Yes. Yes. So important. Permission's so important. You know, one of the best prayers to pray is Psalm 139, verses 23 to 24. It's David's prayer, and what he's doing is giving God permission to convict him. He says, "Search me, O God, test me and know my anxious thoughts. Point out anything in me that offends you, and lead me along the path of everlasting life." So what he did was give God permission to convict him. And conviction seems to be this, you know, naughty word. And I'm like, why? Well, I want to be pruned because pruning—okay, it hurts for a second, and then you repent and you grow exponentially farther. So you want healing with God? It takes a little bit of pruning sometimes. It takes a little bit of conviction, a little bit of repentance, a little bit of forgiving. Because all of that just stifles your growth. And so when you cut that off—you cut off the unforgiveness, you cut off some bitterness, you cut off some bad agreements—what have you got left? You've got growing, beautiful fruit, an abundant life with God. So permission's really important. It's a key. It's actually one of the number one things I would tell you to do today for your inner healing. Give God permission to convict you.
Kristen Wambach (13:07): Mm-hmm. I will agree with you. I will agree with you. One of my favorite nuances or personalities about Father God is Father God as a righteous judge. You go before the courts of heaven and you stand there where accusations are just, you know, called forth. And at that point, I love it because I go, "I'm sorry. Yeah, I agreed with that. Father, I'm sorry. Yes, I did agree with that." And that wonderful, wonderful place of—I've just given the Judge permission to sift out everything, every lie that the enemy has tried to attach to me. And the beautiful part of David's prayer there that you mentioned is let's go to the end of it, "so that he can live in everlasting life." So if we went here with everlasting life, which Jesus paid for for us to begin the eternal now, that's what we get by allowing Him to convict us. We get the fruit of that. It's so good.
Heather O'Brien (14:24): Yeah. Come on. It is good. It is good. And if you go back to John 10:10, the thief came to steal, kill, and destroy. But Jesus says, "But I came that you might have a rich and satisfying, abundant life," depending on what translation you listen to. I'm like, I want them all! I want all of those activities going on. A rich, satisfying, abundant life is what He wants for you. But the thief wants the opposite. He wants to steal your joy. He wants to deprive you of any peace. And he wants to kill you. He wants to kill your joy. He wants to kill your life. He wants to kill your marriage. He wants to kill your family relationships. He wants to kill your finances. He wants to kill every part of every nook and cranny of your life, and then ultimately, you. And God came to do the opposite. And so all you have to do is take on a sweet little posture: "Holy Spirit, I give You permission to convict me, to prune me, to trim me, so that I might have the abundant life." Yeah, why wouldn't you take that exchange? It's a beautiful exchange.
Chapter 5: Overcoming Fear and Shame(16:10 - 20:37)
Kristen Wambach (16:10): It is a beautiful exchange. And let's—we're gonna unpack that. Because there are times where fear will say, "Ooh, that isn't a beautiful exchange." For some odd reason, we might have relational issues with other people or some of our, you know, parental personalities in our life, and we take on those personalities, and that's not who God is. So when we give permission and engage in that pruning, sometimes the pruning is the personalities that aren't supposed to put labels on your life.
Heather O'Brien (16:48): That's right. That's a good point. Yeah, fear—and sometimes we let fear protect us. And we don't—I mean, saying that out loud is like, "No, we don't." But I'm gonna push back a little bit. I know I have. I know I've let fear keep me in isolation. I know I've let fear keep me small. I know I've let fear shut my mouth. I know I've let fear do a lot of things to, quote-unquote, "protect" me. However, it wasn't protecting me; it was keeping me small. It was keeping me in a little box. It was keeping me tidy. If you knew me now, I'm not the one that's gonna be tidy. I'm gonna scream to the rooftops, "Jesus loves you!" But fear says, "You're not safe over there." Guilt says, "You did something wrong. You can't move forward." Shame is gonna tell you, "You are what went wrong." And unforgiveness is going to tell you, "Well, if I release this, then justice might not ever happen."
And these are the things that we want to protect ourselves with because these are voices that we've been listening to, but they don't really define a child of God. I mean, Second Corinthians 10:5 says to take every thought captive and make it obey Christ. And that means that we don't let fear, guilt, shame, and unforgiveness preach to us all day. We bring those thoughts to Jesus and we ask: "Is this true? Should I be silent and go sit in the corner? Is this from You, God? What do You say instead, God?" So if you eliminate guilt, shame, and fear—don't pretend like they aren't there, but you bring them into the light, you repent, you renounce false agreements, you forgive where you need to, you declare God's truth—you're gonna find that you're living the abundant life that God intended for you to have.
It's not supposed to be so hard. However, if you're stuck, that's when I would say, "Hey, come along with someone who can point these things out to you." Because a lot of times we have voices talking to us that feel really reasonable. I know shame sounds really reasonable. I think I coached some students yesterday, and it was like, when the Holy Spirit revealed what He did, the whole group had our mouths wide open, jaws dropped, like—but that seemed so reasonable two seconds ago! And when the Holy Spirit exposed it for what it really was, and showed it wasn't twisted up in what felt like justice, it was like, "I've been holding on to that, and that's really gross." But now I can let it go because now I can see how gross it is. But you can't see that without the Holy Spirit shining His beautiful light on it. And sometimes you need someone else to come alongside you to do that. So, you know, get around the Body of Christ to help you do this. You don't have to do this alone. And sometimes you can't do it alone, and that's actually okay. God never meant for you to do it alone.
Chapter 6: The Spiritual Pet Compromise(20:38 - 27:09)
Kristen Wambach (20:38): Heather, I'm going to ask you some questions about your metaphor, your spiritual pet compromise—settling for hidden identity shifts or treating old anxieties or coping mechanisms like house pets, those familiar spirits like house pets that we feed rather than strongholds to break. You have a brilliant and highly out-of-the-box analogy about those spiritual pets—the stray compromise, the identity thieves that move into your internal house and multiply like wild country cats, feral cats. I just love the metaphor. And eventually, they start growing up to be like roaring tigers in our living room. Why is it so incredibly easy for believers to domesticate their trauma and make excuses for anxiety, and how do we practically stop feeding the spiritual pets before they take over the entire temple, which is ourselves?
Heather O'Brien (21:35): Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, so here's my analogy. I had no pets before, and we live out in the country. We had a couple of cats come by, and my husband's like, "Let's get some cat food." And I didn't know any better. We started feeding some cats outside. The two cats—we looked at them one day and were like, "They're both pregnant." And then they both had babies on the same day. So I went from never having a pet before to 22 cats that I had to figure out how to feed. And they were all outside cats. And I use this analogy for the spiritual compromise in our life because, what's up? One: I compromised my porch, my driveway, because we had 22 cats. Guess what came whenever I fed them outside? Ants and their mess! There were paw prints all over my car. There was a lot of mess going on. And then I had to buy the food. Can you imagine the bags of cat food that I had to buy? Like, they were bigger than me! And so the money—there was money involved. And you think about that, and it's like, okay, I stepped in their mess, I had to clean up their mess, I had to feed their mess. Like, it was a continual process.
And compromising our life spiritually looks like—well, let's just go with a lie. Like, "Well, I just kind of gave a little white lie," but then someone asked you a question, and you had to take that white lie and turn it into a green lie, and then it folded over into a pink lie. Like, there was just this big ball of mess until you didn't even know what the truth was anymore, and you were just stuck. That's what compromise is. One compromise equals a ton of sin. It just builds. It builds and builds and builds. And that's what we do with fear. One little compromise over this identity shift, like: "I should go sit in the corner and be quiet. I should feel guilty. I should be afraid of what other people think about me. I should be afraid that they're abandoning me. Or, you know, they haven't messaged me back, they probably hate me. They probably are mad at me. Maybe they died." Like, there are just all these "what-ifs" that go on in our mind.
And what those are are little, tiny identity shifts, like: I should be afraid of abandonment, I should be afraid of loneliness, I should be afraid of XYZ, whatever it is. And so we take on this guilt, the shame, and the fear as identities at some point. They turn into our identities. And until you clean up that mess a little bit at a time, a little bit at a time, it's going to overtake your life. It'll affect how you respond to people, it'll affect your finances, it'll affect your work situation. I had someone come to the workshop recently who was dealing with outbursts of anger. And even her workplace was experiencing this, and they asked her to come to my workshop. They said, "Would you please take time off and go?" And I'll tell you, when we get down to the bottom of it, it's maybe not what you think. It's not really these little things—what is it, the things that spoil you? It's not the little things. It was—yeah, she had a ton of little foxes in her life.
Kristen Wambach (25:26): The little foxes, that one.
Heather O'Brien (25:32): But really, the truth is, it came in at a very, very young age. So it seemed like there was this big, giant tiger in her life that she let loose, but it started with the tiny cat that she fed outside. I don't know if that makes sense. But she got a letter when she was a really, really young little girl, and her mom had just decided to abandon her and leave her. That's a terrible story. She took on the fear of abandonment. And then from there—I mean, can you imagine how much sadness is there? And then you don't grieve it, and you don't know what to do with it as a young child, and then it turns into anger, and then it turns into bitterness, then it turns into rage. Right. So this is what it looks like to have compromise in your life. It's like feeding this outside pet, and it turns into an inside pet, and then it turns into a roaring tiger that's just roaming loose in your house. And so if we don't deal with these little identity compromises, we end up affecting everything. And this story is all in the No Fear Allowed book. If you want to grab that book and workbook, that's all in there. If you really are dealing with fear, I'd say go check out that book, No Fear Allowed.
Kristen Wambach (26:40): Mm. Mm-hmm. I love that. Great answer. I love the cats. And we forgot about all the fleas and the other stuff that they bring into the house. The fleas not only attach themselves to the cats and you, but anybody else in the house. So it's a metaphor that keeps on giving.
Heather O'Brien (27:00): Oh my goodness, yeah. Come on, that's it!
Chapter 7: Experiencing God's Love and Healing(27:10 - 28:18)
Heather O'Brien (27:10): It keeps on going. It really does. And especially if you've ever had a cat, you really get it. They can tell you a lot about what a spiritual pet is doing in your life. And it might even seem like—I have an inside cat now, and she's like, nonchalant, doesn't do anything but sit in the sun and bother you occasionally. But you think about that spiritual pet in your life—it only bothers you when it's hungry. It only bothers you when it needs a little pet. And when is that? Is that when you get a financial bill and you're like, "I can't pay this"? Is that when your one friend does this one thing that you wish they would never do, but they did it again? Here they go. It only hits occasionally, but still, it's still bothering you. It's still in there.
Kristen Wambach (27:55): Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's a great story. That's a great story. Yeah. Yeah, because I love metaphors and I love the visual. I was going, and it was hidden in the sunshade, you know. And I was thinking, the sunshade is what blocks you from the heat of the day. So, okay people, you can just run with that one on your own.
Heather O'Brien (28:16): Beautiful visual, right? It was the grossest thing. Come on now, it was hidden. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Chapter 8: Navigating Religious Legalism and Emotionalism(28:19 - 29:39)
Kristen Wambach (28:19): Okay, I'm going to drive this a little bit more personal. Let's take a little bit of a turn here and kind of address religious legalism. You know, we have rules, no spirit, we get freaked out about the supernatural. Sometimes we have like a hyper-emotionalism. Sometimes the church says, "No feelings, squash them, you're not to feel." But the feeling, the experiential things, like you just said—you heard God because you experienced the vibration moving in your body. So you could feel the atmosphere, that you were technically seated in heavenly places, feeling. That's where you were. But sometimes legalism doesn't allow us to have that relational anchor—an anchor in the supernatural, or maybe our physical eyes can't see but our spiritual eyes can see quite clearly.
Chapter 9: Hearing God: The Equation of Truth(29:40 - 30:26)
Kristen Wambach (29:40): You teach a unique equation for hearing God clearly: 10 plus seven equals 17, where the 10 laws of Moses meet the seven spirits of God, meaning the Word plus the Spirit equals absolute Truth. He is just welcomed into the room right there. For the individual whose brain is constantly buzzing with confusion, spiritual static, or a bit too much scrolling on their phone, how does this formula act as a hard defensive shield against deceptive, lying voices of the enemy?
Chapter 10: Skepticism in Prayer and Healing(30:27 - 32:50)
Heather O'Brien (30:27): I guess really the root of it is you might be skeptical. You might be skeptical of that prayer, or ask, "Was this God's voice, or my voice? Or how does a formula really work?" And I'm like, well, let's talk about that for just a minute. I really get it because a lot of people have prayed. I prayed, I read the books, counseling, you tried to forgive. A lot of people say, "I've already forgiven. What else you got?" I get that. And I'm never going to tell you just get over it, because that's not the answer either. So if someone's saying prayer can bring healing, and you're saying that sounds too simple, I'm going to say this: Prayer has been ineffective because you've been praying generally when God wanted to lead you specifically. And you might be skeptical of the feelings and things, and maybe that's fair. Maybe that's fair. Feelings don't define that God's there. He might actually enhance your feelings and things like that, especially at the very beginning of your relationship with Him, because He wants to confirm it. But also, He might pull back a little bit and see if you still believe by faith, because isn't that the foundation of our faith? We believe by faith that Jesus is who He says He is, and that He died on the cross for us.
And so, what I'm saying is, instead of saying, "God, just take this anxiety away," for instance, and then hoping something happens, why don't we just change the prayer and make it more specific? Right? And then it's like, well, what is this anxiety connected to? What belief is underneath this? When did this begin? Well, God, do I need to repent of anything, forgive anyone, release anything, declare something? Because there is a next right step. But the Holy Spirit wants to show you what that next right step is instead of you just throwing out all the prayers that you need to pray, basically. And so, I understand the cynic, I understand the skeptic, I understand that you've already tried it. But have you tried to be more specific according to what God is saying? Not according to what you've already done, but according to what God is saying now. Have you tried what He's saying now? Do you know what He's saying right now?
Chapter 11: The Journey to True Healing(32:51 - 34:41)
Heather O'Brien (32:51): And I guess I want to go a little bit deeper because a lot of times people say, for instance, like, "I've already forgiven, I already did that thing." And I get that. But what if there's another layer? Is God allowed to point out anything else? Because when you say you've already done it, it's almost like a slap in the face, like, "Well, I'm already done. Let me close that box right now." And God's like, "I really want to help her heal, but she won't even open the box back up." And maybe we're scared of that box. Maybe we're scared of opening that box again.
But true healing means there is no more fear. True healing means I can open that box anytime. I can talk about it, I can testify about it, because it's all about Jesus giving glory right now. You want to open that box and give God glory. That's what—the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. So if I want to prophesy to you, I'll tell you, man, Jesus radically saved me, healed me, and delivered me, and I can tell you all the nitty-gritty details. And so when you can't tell the details, I'm going to say, why are you afraid of that? And God wants to heal that. So yes, you can be skeptical, but also, can you be open-handed a little bit more? Can you let God back in just another minute and say, "Okay, I think I forgave, but God, is there anything else I need to forgive?" Can you say, "God, I feel like this anxiety doesn't mean anything, I'm just anxious. But also, Heather said I should ask You some more questions. So, is there something specific I'm afraid of?" Would you just go a little bit deeper? Because I think that God wants us to just be a little bit more open-handed. He's not afraid of your skepticism. He's not afraid of your questions. He's not afraid of a few more questions. Could you just be in a conversation with Him and just ask Him some more questions about it instead of acting like you've already got it figured out? Even if you still have the struggle, you're not done.
Chapter 12: Investigating the Root of Issues(34:42 - 37:38)
Kristen Wambach (34:42): I do have my phone on do not disturb, so—it was my ch-ching from my Etsy store! It was right there, so I'm thinking, that was a prophetic ch-ching.
Heather O'Brien (34:58): That was on the money! That's what that was—on the money. Come on. Mm-hmm. Okay.
Kristen Wambach (34:59): To piggyback around around that again—not behind it, around it—because I have heard that in my own life and with other people who I mentor and encourage: "Been there, done that, already did that," you know. But if it's still manifesting in your life, you're not finished.
Heather O'Brien (35:29): Uh-huh. Yeah. You know, I got a funny story about this. Like, this is literal, this just happened a couple of weeks ago. I was smelling this rotten milk smell in my car. And I went fishing—like, what happened? No, I still have young kids. Okay. Well, I had dropped off a kid at camp, and we had picked up lunch on the way, and I forgot to check back there. He's not even in the car, he's not even at home. Well, he had chicken nuggets and a milkshake back there. Okay. So I throw that out. A couple of days later, the smell is still there. And this goes back to your point. The smell is still there. There's still rotten fruit. And so I investigate. And I investigated about three more times, and that smell was still there and getting grosser. But I couldn't find anything, couldn't find anything. And so I really understand your pain when you're saying, "I've already forgiven. I've already done deliverance. I've already been to the altar. I've already prayed the prayers. I've already done it." I really feel your pain.
But I prayed and I was like, "Holy Spirit, why is my car smelling?" And He revealed it in the most crazy way. I pulled out the back sunshades to my car. And when I pulled them out to put them over my windshield, I smelt the smell even stronger. So guess what? There was another milkshake. There was another milkshake that had exploded in the pocket of the passenger seat—my little kid's. And I—so there were two milkshakes. Do you get it? There was a milkshake from Chick-fil-A, and there was a homemade milkshake from a protein shake. I'm like, I don't even know when I made it! It had exploded, it was rotten, and it was the grossest mess ever. And I'm telling you, the smell is revealing there's rotten fruit. And so you keep saying, "I've already done it, I've already done it, I've already done it," and I'm like, but is the smell still there? Can you investigate a little bit? There's probably another milkshake.
Chapter 13: Resource Drought and Spiritual Abundance(37:39 - 39:11)
Kristen Wambach (37:39): Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's a great story. That's a great story. Yeah. Yeah, because I love metaphors and I love the visual. I was thinking, and it was hidden in the sunshade, you know. And I was thinking, the sunshade is what blocks you from the heat of the day. So, okay people, you can just run with that one on your own.
Heather O'Brien (38:20): Beautiful visual, right? It was the grossest thing. Come on now, it was hidden. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Kristen Wambach (38:24): Okay, I'm going to drive this a little bit more personal. Let me give you a scenario. If we're navigating a severe resource drought where you've been a faithful, raw kingdom worker, but it's not matching up with the external financial facts. And we know what Paul talks about, being in that oneness, yet he was still in prison. So sometimes it leaves us waiting on—I'm not going to say just a word from God. It means the manifestation of the word from God that you have been stewarding and holding. So leaving the asset completely, like we put it up on the Judge's bench. We have gone after it, taken care of the accusations, and it's there just waiting. And there's like this white-knuckling of a performance engine.
Chapter 14: Questions that Uncover Spiritual Roots(39:12 - 40:39)
Kristen Wambach (39:12): I'm moving on here. Heather, I want to bring this straight into the courtroom of real life for all of us listening who are caught in that intense, high-pressure standoff. The subject matter could change, but we know that there's abundance there, but we're right there in that high pressure. And sometimes that pressure cooker is just trying to get some of those triggers to jump back on us again. We love Jesus deeply. We're fearlessly tracking with our sovereign assignments. Yet on a practical Monday morning, the kingdom platforms are producing zero revenue. External facts look like financial prison cells. They're physically and emotionally exhausting, and wrestling with that false baseline belief—we're just wrestling with this. You teach that God reveals roots through questions. When a leader is sitting in that exact resource drought—and that word resources is very open, whether it's healing, whether it's financial release resources, whether it's connection, open doors, we know that the resource word is pregnant—what are the three deep questions that need to be asked to Holy Spirit to expose the root of the exhaustion, to be able to leave our concerns sitting safely on the Judge's bench right there on the mercy seat, and let God take total responsibility for His own promise?
Chapter 15: The Importance of Being Open-Handed(40:40 - 43:08)
Heather O'Brien (40:40): Okay, so that's deep. That's deep. And I'm imagining several scenarios over here. Personally, I know what it feels like to have that oxymoron. I'm a Jesus lover, I'm doing exactly what He said, yet I don't see the fruit. And I have felt Him kind of come back and say, "Okay, is the fruit up to Me or not?"
Kristen Wambach (41:04): Yes.
Heather O'Brien (41:05): "Okay, so if the fruit's up to You, God, why aren't You showing it?" And He's like, "Well, there are some blockages." And I know we always think we're done, but if there's not fruit, there's proof that you're not done. And I guess I've just got to go back to that perspective of, like, I know you think you already did it, but a lot of times the Holy Spirit shows me there's one more thing holding up the line. And sometimes there are many things. And I think we're too scared of that. We're scared of it feeling so overwhelming. And so God knows that, and He takes us down a journey. He takes us down a journey of one thing at a time. And I'm like, "God, I did everything You said. I did this, I did that, I did that." And He showed me the whole plan. And then I say, "What am I missing?" That's one of the best questions you can ever ask God. "What am I missing?" and sit there and let Him tell you. I have found so much fruit from that one question: "What am I missing?"
Now, I know a list of things that I could be missing. I mean, it could be, do I need to forgive anyone? Have I come into an agreement that I shouldn't be in agreement with? Is there something, you know—so what am I not aware of? Like, sometimes you just don't know what to pray. And that's the best place to be, if I could be honest with you. "God, what am I missing?" And if you can sit still for a minute, He's gonna show you something that's gonna be like—and then, if I could be so bold, the next question would be: "God, would You help me to be open-handed with this and be able to come back to You and ask You again, what am I missing?" Because we often think we're done and we just run with it, and we're like, "Okay, where's the fruit?" And He's like, "I wasn't quite done talking. I just gave you the one thing because I didn't want to overwhelm you." And we ran with it. We ran with it. And so if you could go back and you could do some more investigative work: "God, when did this start? What am I believing? What do You say is true?" There are a lot of good, great questions, but one of the best questions that you could ask three times is: "God, what am I missing?" and continue to be open-handed with it. You're really gonna find that God loves to continue the conversation later instead of you saying, "Okay, I'm done." And when you start seeing the fruit, don't think that you've got it all figured out, because you probably don't. Just keep asking, "How can I optimize this?" especially when it comes to finances, because He wants you to live an abundant life. So if you're just now being able to pay the bills, now it's like, "Okay, God, how do I pay the bills and add to savings?" Right? So it's like that with our healing journey. It's like that with our finances; it's like that with our relationships. "God, we're not arguing anymore, that's great. But how can I, like, fall back in love with them again? And how can we stay in love again?" Like, you can keep building with God. It doesn't have to be just this mediocre, "Okay, I've arrived," and let's move on from there. Like, keep building.
Chapter 16: Connecting with Heather O'Brien(43:09 - 45:22)
Kristen Wambach (43:09): Thank you. I have a couple of things cooking in the brain. I'm going, okay, do we do both things, God, or do—yeah. So, I have a prophetic idea for us, but I'd like you again to share with our listeners about your workshop, your book, remind us again where can we find you? Would you please let us know how we can connect with you?
Heather O'Brien (43:42): Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So sometimes you just need help slowing down to hear what God is actually saying and get down to the root of the struggle, and then you want to know what to pray. You want to do what we're talking about. That's why I created the Heal with God Workshop. So go to HealWithGodWorkshop.com. It's a free online event that happens every month where I give you a Spirit-led framework to help you identify what's really underneath the symptom, hear God more clearly, and then know the next right step to take in your healing journey. Because the symptom's not your identity, the struggle's not the whole story, and God's not confused about how to heal what you've been carrying. Go to HealWithGodWorkshop.com, you can sign up for that. And you can find the Heal with God book and the Heal with God podcast anywhere that you look for books and podcasts.
Kristen Wambach (44:53): Mm-hmm. And your main website is what?
Heather O'Brien (44:59): Yeah, HeatherOBrien.net.
Kristen Wambach (45:01): There you go. Yay. Wonderful. And yes, listeners, as you know, if you've been listening for a while, all of those links and goodies will be in the show notes. Because some of you are driving to work and you can't just log those things down, I have everything for you in the show notes. Just click on over and it'll be so easy to connect with Heather.
Chapter 17: Pruning Roots for Spiritual Growth(45:23 - 54:13)
Kristen Wambach (45:23): Now, Heather, this is what I saw in the spirit, and I'm going to lay down the prophetic thing that I thought because I feel you praying through that. What I saw—because we've talked a lot about, you know, pruning and forgiving and all those wonderful inner healing and deliverance things that we already know to do and have done, been doing it for years; we're mature people walking in loving Jesus—but what I saw is, I went, "Ooh, it's been a while." So sometimes we assume pruning happens above ground. But we forget sometimes we have plants that have been in a pot for such a long time they become root-bound. And any master gardener at some point in time would pull the plant out and prune the roots and put it back in fresh soil. And that's what I am pulling from you in the gold as an activation. Would you lead us through pruning some of those actual roots that are below ground?
Heather O'Brien (46:37): Wow. Yeah. All right, Holy Spirit, show me what to do. God, I just thank You. I thank You for the listeners. I thank You for the warriors who are root-bound—and isn't that all of us at some time? I just thank You for what You're doing in each and every one of the listeners right now. I ask that You would show them the names of the roots, that they would be able to identify the name of the struggle, because sometimes naming the thing is the hardest part of it. They only see the fruit, but they don't know the name of the root. And I'm asking, God, that You would give them the name of what they are afraid of. They know it's the spirit of fear, but of what? What is really underground? Is it fear of abandonment, fear of loneliness, fear of the unknown? There is a specific name that's gonna untap the mystery that they have been seeking. And once they have the name of the thing, then they can actually prune it with You. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Father. Thank you, Holy Spirit, for that name.
Yeah, that's usually the investigative work that I do with each and every person that works with me—naming the thing. And it's not always something that you just don't know. I just don't think that we know it apart from the Holy Spirit. I'm often amazed, and my jaw is dropping like, "Whoa, what was that?" I mean, yesterday we had students, and every single one of them left with a very specific name for the root that made no sense until the Holy Spirit connected it. I must say, unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to you, you might not know this, but I'm praying right now the Holy Spirit will. And take time to listen, 'cause He'll show you. He'll show you.
Kristen Wambach (48:47): Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm going to add another couple of metaphors to that root-bound pot while we're sitting in this pregnant moment where what Heather just released is working. It's working. So I encourage you, listeners, just put your hand on your heart. Let me just talk metaphorically so that Holy Spirit uses this time, this quiet place, this listening place, so that Heather's word and her faith can go forth and the anointing that's on her life will rake it through.
So, I have citrus trees that are on my pergola right now, and I replanted them a couple of years ago. But remember, when we have pots, sometimes the roots can be overgrown and root-bound. There are times that your pot gets so full that literally you need to take a drill and open up the waterways, because some plants hate to have wet toes. You've got to get the flow going so that the water can go through instead of holding in and becoming stagnant. I have a very large potted tree—it's a curly willow—and it's terribly due for me to go in and prune its roots so that, in the pruning of the roots, it allows the resources from the soil to actually feed the mass of the tree that we enjoy seeing above. And I wanted to point out in this metaphorical picture that when you're allowing Holy Spirit to prune some of the roots, what it does is it takes away the fight from stealing resources from the taproot. And that taproot is where you're connected to Jesus in the spirit. So you've got your spirit, your soul, and your body, and it just opens up the flow—that taproot. Anything else you want to piggyback on that, Heather?
Heather O'Brien (51:05): Wow. That was deep. That was deep. I think, you know, the deeper the roots go into Jesus, the more you can have more and more abundant life. I think that we have to remember that. You're allowed to have more. You're allowed to have more. You're allowed to go deeper with Him. And everybody listening already loves Jesus, they already know all this stuff. But I'm saying, dude, there's more! There is more. And the trimming really brings the more.
Kristen Wambach (51:41): It does. It does. Heather, thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you for opening up the vat of the well of who you are and sharing yourself with us today.
Heather O'Brien (51:54): Yeah. This has been an awesome, awesome, Spirit-filled conversation. I'm so excited that I got to meet you and got to have this time together with you. I pray that the listeners are blessed as much as I've been blessed.
Kristen Wambach (52:07): Thank you again.
Chapter 18: Outro and Spiritually Brave Closing Thoughts(54:14 - End)
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