Trading the Canvas of Trauma for the Masterpiece of God! with Kate Massey ❖ 286

The pain I have experienced has given me a heart for those who have experienced trauma and pain.” —Kate Massey

What do you do when your internal world doesn't match your Sunday morning theology? You love God, but trauma, anxiety, or deep pain leaves you feeling stuck. Many of us have been taught to "suck it up" and rely on willpower, but that approach often leaves us spiritually malnourished.

EPISODE TAKEAWAYS

• Stop "Sucking It Up": Suppressing wounds and relying on self-coping mechanisms blocks the Holy Spirit from being your true Comforter.​​​

• Redefine Your Architecture: Past pain shapes your choices. Invite God into the raw truth of that ache to stop trauma from holding the steering wheel.
• The Blueprint of Surrender: True humility is accepting that you aren't the painter of your life. Your worth is an immutable reality already settled by the Artist.
• Gifts and Resilience: Unresolved friction often signals undeveloped spiritual gifts—like mercy or discernment—that require a mature community to anchor.
• The 18-Inch Journey: Head knowledge cannot heal a broken heart. Use the Free PDF Listener Guide to bridge this gap and move kingdom truth into your physical body this week.

SUMMARY

In this episode, I sit down with licensed professional counselor and author Kate Massey, author of the profound new book Purpose in the Pain. We look past religious platitudes to find real, raw restoration, investigating how clinical mental health and supernatural deliverance work together to set us free.

This conversation peels back the layers of trauma to reveal how Jesus meets us right in the middle of our pain. We explored how trauma changes our decision-making architecture and why our coping mechanisms—often masks for survival—can block the Holy Spirit from operating as our Comforter. We moved from the "bootstrap" mentality to a place of total surrender, recognizing that our worth was bought at the cross long before we ever faced our current struggle.

You do not have the authority to tell the Artist what He created. You do not get to define your worth; Jesus already settled that on the cross.” —Kate Massey

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Episode 286: Full Transcript with Timestamps
Kristen Wambach (00:01.922) Welcome back to the show, everyone. You know that on this podcast, we are all about—you know that in this podcast, we are all about stepping into a space where we can live spiritually brave, engaging in those soul-stirring conversations that bring heaven's perspective right here down to the earth. Today I am so incredibly honored to welcome a truly kindred spirit to the microphone.
Kate Massey is a licensed professional counselor, a gifted storyteller, and now the author of the beautiful new debut book, Purpose in the Pain. Kate brings this gorgeous rare combination of clinical expertise and deep unfiltered Christian faith. She operates as a real investigative journalist of the heart.
Taking us through her own survival of trauma, her education at Liberty University, and the moments where Holy Spirit met her on the bathroom floor and in the revival pool to change everything. Kate, I have just finished reading Purpose in the Pain and your vulnerability broke my heart wide open in the best way possible. Welcome to the show.
Kate Massey (01:14.115) Okay.
Kate Massey (01:24.355) Thank you so much. That means a lot. Thank you.
Kristen Wambach (01:29.364) Yay, yay! Now, listeners, because I just finished reading Kate's book, I thought it would be fun if I just set up the questions right from her quotes, right from the time the—the quotes that I highlighted in the book that I wanted to talk to her about. So our first quote, this is just so cute and the metaphor is so deep. It's wonderful.
She says, "The pain I have experienced has given me a heart for those who have experienced trauma and pain. In the Lion King, Rafiki hit Simba on the head with a stick. And Simba looked at him asking, 'What was that for?' And Rafiki said to Simba, 'It doesn't matter, it's in the past.' Simba says, 'Yeah, but it still hurts.'" Mm mm mm mm mm. That's such a great metaphor, Kate.
You use this brilliantly to illustrate from the Lion King show how we try to minimize past trauma. As a counselor, you see people trying to move on while their bodies and minds are still screaming that it hurts. How do we stop running from the stick? Stop pretending it doesn't hurt, and actually invite God into the raw truth of that ongoing pain?
Kate Massey (02:59.725) First thing is we have to be honest with ourselves. There are a lot of times when we've gone through pain or traumas, it's tough for us to bring it up. There can be very many reasons for this. A lot of times we don't want to admit what we've been through to ourselves. And we think it's a whole lot easier if we just shove it to the side, but that's not the case. And when we do that, it's still affecting us day in and day out, right?
It affects how you interact with other people and things like that. And a lot of times we're like, no, that's not affecting it. But if we really look at our responses and our actions to things around us, we see where our past, no matter what your past is, whether it's pain and trauma or whether it's, you know, rainbows and unicorns, whatever it is, it still affects how you process the world around you. And having that truthful moment and saying, okay, these are some areas where I see where I need growth, right? And that's a hard conversation to have with ourselves. But it's so necessary because it impacts everything. The decisions you make, how you interact with others, what you believe, everything stems from that.
Kristen Wambach (04:22.582) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I recently shared on another podcast a moment that Holy Spirit said, "Kristen, would you stop doing that? Would you stop saying sucking it up?" Because that was the language I told myself. I just sucked it up. I was raised with three brothers. I'm the parent of four sons. So, in all that testosterone, tell me, I'm kind of used to saying let's suck it up until another time. And Holy Spirit got in my face and said, "Don't do that anymore. If you do that, you keep me from being the comforter in your life."
Kate Massey (04:49.951) Yeah.
Kristen Wambach (05:06.264) Changed everything for me. Changed and--
Kate Massey (05:08.865) Yep. And a lot of times when we're looking at those instances, it's not just that He wants to be our comforter because that's who He is, but it's also protection. When we've gone through pains and we've gone through trauma, our initial response is, I've got to protect myself. And news flash, that's not your job.
That's God's job. And that's a hard truth for us to admit to ourselves. But with that, like if we just took a split second and recognized that God was there in the pain, in the trauma with you—He never left you. He might have allowed it to happen, but if He's allowed it to happen, there's a reason that He allowed it to happen. How would our thoughts and our beliefs shift if we focused on: "Okay, this is what He was trying to teach me in this moment," instead of "how dare He let this happen to me."
Kristen Wambach (06:08.236) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Can you help us to unpack? Because sometimes I notice with myself those self-coping skills will just jump in there, you know, like, and they just look so much like Kristen. Sometimes it's hard to recognize them because they just jump up. How have you learned in your relationship with God to allow him, give him the permission to say hello, that—that's a Kristen or that's a Kate coping skill? Can we talk about that? How has He unpacked that for you?
Kate Massey (06:45.804) For me, I do daily declarations. And one of them is that I am open to Holy Spirit coming in and showing me through other people, through situations, where I need to grow. And it's every day laying that down, saying it verbally, it's just a symbol of me laying it at Jesus' feet and saying, okay, show me where I need to grow.
Kristen Wambach (07:11.15) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (07:14.794) What are the areas where I'm still messing up? Because we're all human. You're never gonna not mess up. That's not going to be possible. And so if we went to God and we said, okay, show me what you need to show me. Show me the next thing that I need to work on. Because we all have a lot that we need to work on. But there are things that are going to be more priority for you than it would be for me. And vice versa. So if we allowed God to show us what He wants for us to work on first.
Kristen Wambach (07:36.994) Agree.
Kate Massey (07:50.391) Because if we're able to do that, we're able to walk in our calling. Until we allow him to come in and heal that and show us areas where we're not where we're supposed to be, we can't fully walk where He wants us to walk. But I think it's just so important for us to recognize God is not forceful. He's not going to make you see anything.
There has to be a willingness on our side to say, okay, God, I want to be more like you. What do I need to do to get there? And if you start asking yourself that and asking him that, I'm telling you from experience, it shifts your life.
Kristen Wambach (08:37.12) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. And she's prophetic because she was reading my little notes here that I was taking down. That okay, what happens if you struggle with feeling safe with God? I mean, we—we can actually have those difficulties of: God, I just—I don't feel safe with you. And it's not because His nature has ever done anything or stepped down the line. It's how we learned about him. What—what's a little tool that we could apply to get that—that safety shored up?
Kate Massey (09:18.528) The biggest tool is going to be His word. And so looking at who He is in scripture and seeing how that correlates with your life, right? In the book, I talk about a bunch of traumas I've been through. And it is very easy for us to sit there and say, You allowed me to go through these things. How dare you? Right. But when we shift that perspective of--
Kristen Wambach (09:21.474) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (09:48.886) He was with me in those moments. The moments that I cried, that I was feeling tortured, He was right there. He never left me. He never looked at that and said, that makes you unworthy of me.
Kristen Wambach (09:57.389) Mm.
Kristen Wambach (10:01.966) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (10:03.403) Instead, He welcomed me in at that time, even if I didn't realize it. And shifting our perspective of—ask him. He'll answer you. If you ask him questions like that, He will answer you. Ask him to show you himself, who He really is.
Kristen Wambach (10:22.441) I agree.
Kate Massey (10:24.288) And writing it down too is a huge thing of when you're—because we all have those days where we're like, God, why did you make this happen? Why are you allowing this to happen? You know, and we just get so frustrated with God. But if we allow ourselves to sit there and say, okay, today might not be going the way that I think it should, or the way that I would hope it would. But in the past, this is where God has provided for me. This is where He's taken care of me.
Kristen Wambach (10:51.374) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (10:53.811) Use your own life as evidence for where He has been.
Kristen Wambach (10:59.928) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (11:01.108) He's been there the whole time.
Kristen Wambach (11:03.232) Agree with you all the time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And in—in my agreement with Kate, in all the different modalities of inner healing that I have had the privilege to receive and then turn around and actually administer--
Kate Massey (11:04.778) It's our perspective shift.
Kristen Wambach (11:24.218) I ha—have seen countless times where Jesus shows the person going through the inner healing that He was right there all the time. All the time. Over and over and over again. Now I—I'm gonna to take what you shared with me there because I just went, I'm gonna ask her perspective on this. What I'm more the A personality in your face. I'm very focused person. But what I find a struggle for me is I don't say, God, why are you allowing this? I sometimes get caught in the, I must be missing something. I must be—you know, I—I'm—I—I'm missing something. And then I put that on myself. Ugh.
Kate Massey (12:17.281) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (12:20.62) Yeah, I—yeah, that's just a—a struggle that—that I see. Well, I know God is good. This is not him. And so I go, okay, what do I do so that—because if I take on the absolute responsibility, then I'm not surrendered. And then I go round and round and round. Have any suggestions for me?
Kate Massey (12:45.055) With that again it is using Bible verses in that moment to say, okay, God, I surrender. I'm laying this at your feet and choosing—a lot of times when we don't think about it this way, but when we're turning it on ourselves--
Kristen Wambach (12:52.034) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (13:01.409) Who are you focusing on? Are you focusing on God or yourself? So who are you expecting to fix the situation? And a lot of times we don't see how, you know, humility is talked about in the Bible. But part of humility is us accepting that God is in control. He has the ultimate control.
Kristen Wambach (13:13.634) Yep.
Kristen Wambach (13:20.088) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (13:28.895) And us holding on to that is a huge, huge aspect for how we walk our lives. If we get so focused on ourselves, whether it be positive or negative, you're not able to live and see things the way that God wants you to.
Kate Massey (13:51.553) And that can be hard for us to accept.
Kristen Wambach (13:54.572) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (13:55.99) But we need to realize that if we're focusing on ourselves, we're gonna miss so much.
Kristen Wambach (14:07.246) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (14:08.617) If you're beating yourself up in those moments, what if God has something for you to do and you're not able to do it because you're so focused inwardly?
Kristen Wambach (14:17.61) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I wrote something down here while you were talking. Because I—listening. So a couple questions ago, I shared the story about how Holy Spirit got after me for using the term sucking it up and not making it important. When you were talking there, I just went, this kind of sounds like a familiar spirit that just comes in wearing a different mask.
Kate Massey (14:45.867) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (14:48.554) A different mask. So it's not—it's not sucking it up. So if you wear a different mask, it means that I'm—I'm still dampening. They're still trying to dampen it, dampen the importance and that love relationship with God. Whew. I'ma have to think on that one some more.
Kate Massey (15:09.665) And it is. A lot of that is it's switching the focus from God to ourselves.
Kristen Wambach (15:14.264) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Massey (15:17.601) And that's hard for us to realize sometimes. But if we aren't focusing on God, are you focusing on where you need to be focused? Are you gonna get where you need to go?
Kristen Wambach (15:29.059) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (15:31.157) And the answer is no.
Kristen Wambach (15:32.738) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I have another one of your quotes from your book. It says, "When someone is living out of their trauma, they tend to make decisions that they wouldn't normally make. Having this knowledge and experience has helped me, Kate, connect with clients in a different way." You noted that trauma changes our decision-making architecture. When we are stuck in that survival mode, we often build up walls. We get too close to those familiar spirits, those unhealthy coping habits just to survive the night. How can someone listening recognize if they are making life choices from a place of current wisdom or if their past trauma is actually holding the steering wheel?
Kate Massey (16:30.721) Again, it's gonna go back to having that conversation with God, right? A lot of times we're not gonna notice our own issues. If we go to counseling, that can be one way because a counselor's job is to help you assess areas in your life that need to be adjusted, right? And when I say that, I mean they help you identify patterns that you're falling into. And so having someone who can help you with that is huge, but also having people in your life—you know, I talk in the book about the importance of community.
And your community should not be just anybody, right? When I say this community that I'm talking about, I'm talking about your inner, inner circle. But having those people who you can go up to and you can say, "Hey, I want you to be honest with me. If you see me falling into certain patterns or if you see something that you feel like I need to pay attention to, please come up and share that with me." And when we open ourselves up to that, to that conversation, it allows them—now obviously when you hear something from them, you take it back to God and you ask him, okay, is there truth to this? But He'll show you those patterns. And a lot of it boils down to us being open to it.
Kristen Wambach (17:43.662) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (17:52.878) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (17:54.271) A lot of us have been closed off, especially in the church, of where we are in the wrong. We're so quick to point fingers at other people and not recognize the part that we play.
Kristen Wambach (18:10.272) I'm gonna ask you to say that again because that is so important.
Kate Massey (18:16.49) So in the church, we a lot of times are sitting there and we're not able to see the role that we play. We need to play that role, right? We need to understand what we're doing to affect other people. And it doesn't mean when I say this—I'm thinking about there are sins that we know God does not approve of, right? But there's a difference in condemning the sin and condemning the sinner.
And if we look at Jesus and how He walked through His life, every person who was a sinner—He didn't sit there and just start berating them. He built a relationship with them, built that trust, and then He corrected it. And I think a lot of times I look at the woman at the well and thinking about her situation, right? Like for God to have known, or Jesus to have known, everything that she had done, and yet He still showed her kindness.
Kristen Wambach (19:12.332) My favorite.
Kristen Wambach (19:16.334) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (19:28.12) He did. Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (19:28.18) He corrected her, but there was kindness. It was not out of hate. It was not out of proving her wrong. It was not out of pointing out where she disagreed with him or wasn't living the lifestyle that He approved of. But there was a relationship that He built there in those moments before He started speaking to her about her sin.
Kristen Wambach (19:56.334) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (19:57.3) And we as the church need to do a better job of that.
Kristen Wambach (19:59.841) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And and in that relationship, one of the things that I so appreciate what Jesus—how He communicates with this woman in well, who went back into Samaria and she was like one of the first huge evangelists. He spoke to her from who she was, who He saw her. He spoke to her—didn't get offended by her questions. And that—I love that. Does it help me so much that, you know, we can be bold to lay ourselves and our life out before him and He doesn't get offended by it or why we ask it in a certain way. Hmm. Hmm. My next little quote here, because this is called interviewing Jesus and everybody knows that I love talking about being spiritually brave. Yay. Kate says in her book, she said, "The first was the first meeting with Holy Spirit-filled prayer lady. And during this meeting, I felt something leave my body. I know this sounds hoaxy, but I'm telling you, I could feel it moving through each layer of my skin. The next deliverance episode was getting baptized at the North Georgia Revival." I love how honest you are, how you—I love to ask questions right in here. You literally say, "I know it sounds hoaxy." That's my cup of tea. I love the spiritual side of the spirit realm. We could just talk about this forever, I'm telling you. But the fact that you could feel it, you—as a clinically trained therapist with a master's degree, you openly testified the physical reality of demonic spirits, demonic spirits leaving your body. Can we demystify this for the church, please? How do mental health counseling and supernatural deliverance work together as a holistic path for freedom rather than opposing forces?
Kate Massey (21:52.874) Yeah.
Kate Massey (21:54.6) Amen.
Kate Massey (22:30.75) A lot of that is having counselors that are spirit-filled and have discernment because that is one thing. Like in my practice, I have clients who ask for spirit-filled counseling. And in that, there are moments where God will show me, hey, this spirit, you know, is coming at this person and things like that. And in those moments, we're able to attack the problem head on.
Kristen Wambach (22:59.448) Yes.
Kate Massey (23:00.554) Because we're acknowledging it from the start. And I think there is a lack personally of Christian counselors who are trained in deliverance and understanding that yes, there are people who it is just mental health issues that they're going through, right? A chemical imbalance, things like that. A hundred percent. I'm not discounting that. But there are also some people that it's a little bit deeper than that.
And looking at what they've been through and seeing, okay, where is this coming from? When you have someone who is trained in that and is able to walk through that with you, there's a different level of healing that you will reach. Unfortunately, and I can say this as a Christian counselor, there aren't a lot of trainings for Christian counselors on this.
Kristen Wambach (24:01.006) Hmm. Hmm.
Kate Massey (24:02.27) And part of that is, and this is my personal belief, the church, a lot of the capital C church doesn't want to acknowledge supernatural things. Because we don't understand it. It doesn't make sense to us. And so we're like, I don't want to go there. I don't have all the answers. Well, you don't have all the answers on anything. So, how would it shift if we were trained in that and better knowing Holy Spirit, how He works, what He's doing, and showing people what that is.
And a lot of times, I've seen this and I saw a post about it the other day from another Christian counselor I follow, but people don't realize how your spiritual gifts can affect your mental health. If you have certain spiritual gifts and you don't know how to deal with them, if you don't understand them, they can negatively impact--
Kristen Wambach (24:35.372) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (24:59.915) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (25:13.321) Your life. I know personally, for me, one of my gifts is mercy. And so I can feel what other people are feeling. And as a counselor, that can be very challenging. In some of my sessions, that can be super challenging for me. But before that, before I understood the gift of mercy—because I didn't grow up in a church that talked about spiritual gifts. I grew up Methodist and we mentioned Holy Spirit, but we didn't really mention Holy Spirit. You know what I mean? Like we knew He was part of the Trinity, but like we didn't go any further than that. You know, because that's scary and we don't want to go there.
Kristen Wambach (25:41.634) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (25:47.854) Ha ha ha.
Kate Massey (25:55.316) But for me, when I started to understand Holy Spirit and understand that gifting and how it can be used, it didn't impact my mental health as much. Because instead of holding on to those feelings that I was having that were other people's feelings, I was able to release them to God. And He started to help me identify when it's my feelings or when it's someone else's feelings that I'm feeling.
Kristen Wambach (26:14.574) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (26:24.12) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (26:24.233) Because sometimes the enemy, especially with that gift, will make it seem like it's your own feeling. Or will get in your head and say, that's you. But it's not you. And if you have that discernment, you're able to figure that out.
Kristen Wambach (26:33.006) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (26:36.462) Mm.
Kristen Wambach (26:43.084) Yes. This is very important conversation. And my goodness, you are such a wise young lady. I am totally impressed. Good for you. Good for you. I'm gonna lay myself here on the—on the spit here for a minute so we can actually get a life application to it. So my redemptive gift is Prophet. That's a redemptive gift, that's not an office gift. And every one of those redemptive gifts is first and foremost for us individually for our complete and full transformation. A redemptive gift is different from a mercy gift or a ministry gift.
Kate Massey (27:30.313) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (27:34.282) So the—the prophet redemptive gift is very black and white, supposed to run ahead to see what's going on. And as you study the redemptive gifts, prophet redemptive need to hang out with mercy people to help keep them soft.
Kate Massey (27:55.977) Uh-huh.
Kristen Wambach (27:56.751) The flip side of that. I have so many friends that are mercy, it's not even funny. But the—the flip side of it is the—the prophet helps the mercy to discern where their—their help is actually helping or—or when it's time to pull—to pull back. Very important. So here I am, myself on the spit, when I was a young, undeveloped woman, I was challenging to my parents.
And I'm talking about—Kate just talked about when it's undeveloped. She felt that her mercy was undeveloped and she could feel people's feelings and they could stick on her. Sometimes in the church, we use the word we feel slimed. And she had to develop the skill to be able to actually discern the difference. And that is so important in the counseling field for counselors. Huge.
So here I am as a—as a young adult. And my mom, her only way to deal with me, because here is a gift, a gift of a leader, a gift outspoken, I'm supposed to see ahead, but it's undeveloped. So the only way that she could cope with me was to give me the silent treatment. Absolutely hated it.
But—but now I can look back now and I can—I can see the undeveloped person. So yes, you know, we were young, if we don't ever develop like my father, years and years. So I am a seer. God opened up my spiritual eyes about 20 years ago. And what I later figured out is that my dad was also a seer, however, it was undeveloped, it never was developed. It wasn't ever thing anything talked about in his life, yet it—it actually caused him more trauma because he used to wake up at night and see people in his house and that kind of stuff, but he—he—it was undeveloped.
Kate Massey (29:06.143) Yes.
Kate Massey (29:33.354) Hated it.
Kate Massey (30:32.915) Right.
Kate Massey (30:35.544) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (30:35.603) So I'm just using myself and some of my family instances so that we can give a life application with what you just shared with us about the importance of knowing our gifts, knowing who we are, and allowing Holy Spirit and that spirit-filled community to draw them out and help us mature.
Kate Massey (31:01.246) 100%. And I'm with you on that one too. I have the gift of seeing. And it when you first start seeing—for me, there were years where I denied that I would experience it. And it's interesting because my parents would always make comments to me about—and I still do this to this day, even though I know now my gift of sight and I understand it better—but when I was younger, I used to always sleep with all the doors closed, like a closet to the hallway, whatever it was. I had to have those doors closed. And my parents were like, why? And as a young child, I foolishly believed that if I had the door shut, that those things couldn't get to me.
And so it was something that I had created as a pattern of, okay, I can shut this, because again, I grew up in a church where we didn't talk about that stuff. And so you're not gonna sit there and say that to somebody because a lot of people aren't gonna understand—unless they live in a spirit-filled world, they're not gonna understand that. And so having that understanding of people who have been there with you and understand that when your gifts aren't developed, you don't know how to handle them.
And I've had conversations with people from my church, and they'll ask me questions about things that I've seen and all that. And there's one story where it was a spirit that was actually attached to a trauma that I went through. And I was sitting there in my bed, and I rolled over, I was ready to go to sleep, and all of a sudden I see this face. And it looked like Venom from Spider-Man. But--
Kristen Wambach (32:42.286) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (32:55.822) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (32:57.04) It was—the mouth is what looked like Venom. So it was like this face and it had really dark holes as the eyes, and they looked really deep. And I'm sitting there and I see that, and I open my eyes, and nothing's there in the physical, right? And so I close my eyes again, and all of a sudden that creepy smile of Venom's comes on its face. And in the split second, I cast it out and I said, "You're not welcome here. In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to go." And it was gone in that split second.
And I rolled over and I went to sleep. And I'll have people from church that have heard that story and they go, You just went back to sleep. And I was like, yeah, I removed its access. It didn't have access to come back in. But part of that was when I was younger and when I didn't understand my gifting, I didn't understand how to deal with it.
Kristen Wambach (33:32.685) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (33:48.13) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (33:55.858) When I would see those things, I didn't realize that I had authority to tell it that it had to leave. And I realize that now.
Kristen Wambach (34:00.995) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (34:05.736) And it shifts how you're able to live with your giftings.
Kristen Wambach (34:09.836) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'm going to interject in here with young children and parents. If you happen to have a child who is a seer, there are so many parents that don't understand how to develop that particular gift in their child. And if it's not understood within the home, the sad thing about it is once a child enters the—the educational system, usually for their own self-protection, they will turn it off.
Kate Massey (34:55.102) I did that. I was one of those children. And my mom makes comments now because she was introduced to Holy Spirit really before I was, and she pulled me into Holy Spirit. But she'll look at me and she'll say, "I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were actually seeing things." Because when I was younger, I was adamant that there was something in my room. And she was like, "Nothing's here. We've searched and we've searched." And she couldn't figure out what it was. And it wasn't her fault. She didn't have that gifting.
Kristen Wambach (35:14.542) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (35:28.862) So I also want to take a moment here for the parents who don't have that gifting to recognize it's not your fault if it's hard to understand. Even as someone who has that gift, it is hard to understand sometimes. And so if you haven't been around that, understanding like it—it's okay for you to have questions. It's okay for you to not understand. But also finding people who understand that gift. I remember there was someone who encouraged me to read the book The Veil. I don't know if you've ever read that. And--
Kristen Wambach (36:07.366) Yes. Yes, I have. He just—He just, I think He just did the second—second book. I think it just came out. I was trying to remember his—are there—okay. But yes. Yeah. I—I will link it, I have a couple of things. I will link it in our show notes. I know exactly what you're talking about. Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (36:15.838) Thought there were three. I can't remember his name. I know I can't remember his name.
Kate Massey (36:28.894) Perfect. And he's a pastor in Atlanta and he talks about how he had that gifting and what that was like for him. And he talks about it as a child who, you know, a lot of people didn't understand it. And when you have those experiences, you're like, okay, am I crazy? Am I the problem? But it takes trusting God and leaning into him to better understand what was going on. And I will say that when my gift came back as an adult—because I did, I shut it down for years—but when I opened myself up to Holy Spirit, it came back to me. And with that, when I was able to understand how that gift is used, it shifts things.
Kristen Wambach (36:35.95) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (36:41.454) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (37:25.42) Definitely. Definitely. There—I have several resources that I will put in the show notes since our lovely episode has veered that way. So I did an—an episode that's something titled About Monsters Under the Bed that we actually talk about childhood stuff. I will put that in the show notes so that people can have that as a resource.
One of the best resources that I ran into literally—because during that period of time when God opened my spiritual sight, I literally—and you couldn't talk about it because the church was ignorant about it. There wasn't—leaders had no idea. Oh, my goodness. And so, you know, you go to this—this place of, you think, I must be crazy. So God got a really good book. It's called The Seer by James Goll. One of the best, most biblical, informing books out there. So I will put that link in the show notes as well. Woo! This is so good. Huh? It's excellent. It's excellent. Yeah, yeah. Now I will—I will add this to our conversation because--
Kate Massey (38:41.405) I haven't read that one. I'm gonna have to read it. I haven't read that one. I'm gonna have to read it.
Kristen Wambach (38:53.792) It's been one of my investigations that I have received an answer: We all can see. I'm not more super spiritual. Kate's not more super spiritual. We can't use those labels about, well, they're just a prophet, or they're just an evangelist, or they're just a super spiritual, or you could say they're a nut, fruit, and flake. No, no, no, no. God gave all of us those gifts, those spiritual senses. What we do in the body is first in the spirit. So we can develop them. So my eyes—my spiritual eyes were developed more than my spiritual feelers. There are some people that are stronger as feelers than they are seers. But absolutely everybody can develop the gifts. There is nothing—there's no truth in being spiritually blind.
Kate Massey (39:55.326) Yep. And as you open yourself up to Holy Spirit and educating yourself on the gifts, you'll notice that He pours those gifts out to you a little bit more and a little bit more. And it's—there has to be a willingness. But I think there's also, you know, I've had a few people who ask—have asked me, "I've wanted this gift, but..." you could tell that they were closed off to other gifts. And they were like, "I just don't understand why I'm not getting that gift." And I feel like it's important to note, if you are only open to one part of Holy Spirit, you need to be aware of that and maybe consider that of: how would you feel if someone came up to you and said, "You know what, I want to be friends with you, but I only want to be friends with this part of you."
Kate Massey (40:51.709) How would they respond to that? Because God is the same way. He wants that relationship with us. And if you are acknowledging, "Hey, I'm okay with this area of you, I don't want that area,"--
Kate Massey (41:07.889) He can't fully work in your life if you're shutting him down.
Kristen Wambach (41:14.764) I'm going to put a life application here with exactly what Kate said. So Jesus' humanity, His hundred percent humanity that He walked on the earth so that He could be an example for us as 100% human gives us no excuses. So Jesus went up on the mount of transfiguration and saw and experienced His immortal self. Cool thing. He also was able to take Peter, James, and John with him. Jesus learned how to walk on the water. Jesus learned how to be in one place and actually move to another place. Remember, when He was in the angry crowd, and then He also left? There are many portions in Jesus' humanity that teaches us these really cool things, and they're not new. Go back two, three hundred years and look at what the—the priests and—and the nuns and the—what are they called, the—I don't remember. They were moving in these things. So they have been—we have been distracted as a church. When you had mentioned, Kate, the Methodist Church. If you go back to the—their founding forefathers, they're the ones who brought in some of the hugest revivals, were the Methodists. Hello, people. Okay.
Kate Massey (42:07.741) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (42:43.601) Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (42:48.778) Moving on. I think we're both gonna have—can we both have our soap boxes out here today? I think so. All right. This is really important. Kate said this in her book: "Unfortunately, head knowledge is not enough. You must get the knowledge from your head to your heart. Speaking what God shows you about your identity over yourself helps you to get the knowledge." I will put a question with that. So many believers are stranded right here between their ears in their heads, and they quote scriptures about being more than conquerors or “Holy Spirit, open the eyes of my heart so I can see,” or “I'm seated in heavenly places,” but their hearts still feel broken and abandoned. What was your personal process for moving God's truth down those heavy 18 inches from your analytical mind into your actual heart and body?
Kate Massey (43:55.025) People aren't gonna like this response. So I apologize in advance. It is a choice.
Kate Massey (44:04.893) Part of it is it's a choice and you have to be willing to accept that choice that you can quote whatever it is, but do you believe it? Do you honestly believe what the word says about you? That is God's honest truth. And if you believe the Bible, you believe the whole Bible. You can't pick and choose which parts you believe. And you have to choose to believe every part of it.
Kate Massey (44:40.548) It's there waiting for us. But a lot of times we can't understand, especially when we've gone through traumas. You know, in my book, I talk about different things I've been through. And one of them is sexual abuse. And when you go through something like that, it is hard to sit there and think that you are worthy and that you are valued. But the good thing is I don't get to define myself. That's not my job. My price was set thousands of years ago. It doesn't matter what I say. I have to trust that the one who speaks true life is the one that His words about me matter. Not what I say. And if my words aren't in alignment with what He says, I'm the one that's in the wrong, not him.
Kristen Wambach (45:41.25) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (45:41.372) But it's your choice. Who are you gonna listen to? Are you gonna turn the volume up on what Jesus says or what culture says, what people say about you? I don't know about you, but when I get to heaven on judgment day, I want God to say that I was living for him, living for His approval, not for the people around me.
Kate Massey (46:09.969) I did that for years after going through trauma. I lived for the approval of other people, but they're not who I'm accountable to. It might make life easier while I'm here, but what does that do for my afterlife? For eternity. Am I willing to give up a potential eternity just to have peace for this short period of time on earth? And if you're not receiving pushback in some area of your life, are you living how Christ has called you to live?
And that's hard for us to ask ourselves. But if you are living a godly lifestyle, there's gonna be pushback from culture. There's gonna be pushback from individuals. People aren't gonna understand it because our world does not flow the way that the heavenly kingdom does.
Kristen Wambach (47:14.509) Very well.
Kate Massey (47:14.8) And so we need to take a deep look at ourselves. Who are you living for? Why are you living for them? And who are you gonna ultimately let define you? Because those people that I tried to people-please all those years, they don't have a say over who I am. They didn't create me. When you go to an art show and you look at the art, if it's an abstract piece of art, you can't always tell what it is. But the artist knows what they were painting.
Kristen Wambach (47:18.574) Mm-hmm.
Kate Massey (48:02.374) I might look at it and say it's a tree, but it could be something completely different. I didn't create it, therefore I don't get to say what it is. That's not my job. I don't have the authority to tell the artist what they created.
Kate Massey (48:25.85) I can have my opinions, but they don't hold the same weight as the artist's opinion. And so with that, how would our lives shift if we allowed the artist who created us to be the sole definer of who we are?
Kristen Wambach (48:52.442) Okay, listeners, can you feel that? You can feel the anointing on that. It was absolutely beautiful. And it gets tender. And I apologize, I usually ask this ahead of time. But would you pray for all of us? Our listeners, me, you, and pray. And right in there, because I just felt like when you were describing this beautiful metaphor of this canvas, this masterpiece, and the contention that we put on it, usually self-choice, to remove the name from that beautiful masterpiece of the artist. I just felt like, would you pray for us? And—and we need like a forgiveness prayer. We need to repent because--
Kate Massey (49:47.036) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (49:48.929) We have all said, God, I just don't believe this masterpiece, or I think it should be this way. And now I'm going to take my mouth off of it and let the anointing carry the prayer from you, Kate.
Kate Massey (50:05.988) Heavenly Father, we come to you and we thank you that you had a plan. When you started this universe all those years ago, you knew that each of us would be created just the way we are, Father. And you have an intended plan for each of us. We come to you and we ask for forgiveness for allowing others and ourselves to define us in ways that you never meant for us to be defined, Father. We have accepted those and allowed them to become a part of our identity when they were never meant to be a part of our identity.
And Father, I just pray over the individuals who, as they're watching you paint the canvas of their life, Father, they might not understand where you are in the painting or where you're going, but help them to know that that's not their job. Their job is to follow your lead and lean into you and allow you to do what you do best. We see all this creation that you have placed in this world around us, and we're able to see the awe and the beauty. Father, I just pray right now over each listener that they're able to see that within themselves.
That the same artist that created all the beautiful sunsets and sunrises also created them. Allow that to take deep root in their heart. Allow the truth of who you define us to be, Father—I just pray that that is deeply rooted in their soul, that anything else that is there that the enemy has tried to place, Father, I pray that you highlight it for them and help them figure out the process to remove it, Lord. Whether that be confessing to you or whether that's seeking counseling to help figure out how to get rid of it, Father, we just pray that they are able to come to you and understand that those thoughts are not their truth.
They don't define them, and allow them to lean into you to better understand their identity and authority that only comes from you. And there's no other identity or authority that could be placed on them that carries the same weight, Father. And we just praise you that you have made them uniquely as they are. That when you saw them, you--
Kate Massey (52:33.477) Were creating them just for a specific purpose. And if they don't look like how other people think they should look or act, Father, that they don't need to be focused on that. Allow them to focus on you and your truth, Father. And we just pray that in this time that you comfort them and allow them to have supernatural knowledge of where you're moving in their life and where they are blessed, because each person is blessed in their own right, Father. And I just pray that they are able to feel and know just how important they are to you. It's in your heavenly name we pray. Amen.
Kristen Wambach (53:16.27) Jesus. Amen. Woohoo. That's good stuff. And listeners, you know we hold, we just hold that pregnant pause. Sit in the quiet peace. Ooh, good stuff. Super, super good. Kate, would you please share with our listeners how they can find you, how they can find your book, and the other resources that you have available?
Kate Massey (53:55.855) Yes. If you want to follow me, all my social media is @KateMasseyWrites, my counseling page is Finding Joy Counseling. And if you want to reach out to me through there, I would love to hear from you. I love having a conversation with people about how they have been impacted by different things and just helping people discover where they need to be. If I can get you to resources or whatever it is, I would be honored to be a part of your journey. And I also would say if they want to—I'm sorry, mind blank—if they want to get in touch with me, just reach out through there. That would be the easiest way. And my book is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Walmart online.
Kristen Wambach (54:48.364) Yay, thank you. And yes, listeners, I will have every link in the show notes. So it's easy for you to go click, click, click and find Kate today. And I took notes here of all the other resources that we spoke about. This was a full meal deal. Amen. Thank you, Kate, for just--
Kate Massey (55:08.12) Amen.
Kristen Wambach (55:13.13) Letting those living rivers gush right out of you today and sharing your heart with us.
Kate Massey (55:20.763) Thank you so much for having me. It was an honor.
Kristen Wambach (55:23.64) Thank you.

​Trading the Canvas of Trauma for the Masterpiece of God

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We have all been there. You sit in a church pew, listening to glorious declarations of victory, breakout faith, and the goodness of God, while your internal world is actively screaming in pain. For too long, a silent, structural barrier has existed within the modern church—an unwritten rule that says if you love God enough, you should be able to simply "suck it up" and move past your history. We treat our past wounds like Rafiki hitting Simba over the head with a stick: It doesn’t matter, it’s in the past. But like Simba, our hearts and bodies cry out, “Yeah, but it still hurts.”
In this groundbreaking episode of the Interviewing Jesus Podcast, host Kristen Wambach sits down with Kate Massey, a licensed professional counselor and author of the debut book Purpose in the Pain. Kate brings a rare, beautiful combination of seasoned clinical expertise and deep, unfiltered Christian faith. Operating as a spiritual investigative journalist of the heart, Kate pulls back the curtain on her own survival of trauma, her clinical education at Liberty University, and the moments when Holy Spirit met her on the bathroom floor to rewrite her life’s blueprint.

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CONNECT WITH KATE MASSEY

Pain is something no human can avoid. It is important for us to understand that when we experience pain, there is always a purpose. Going through the pain can affect our lives in many ways. So what do we do when the pain arises? Your perspective matters.

Kate Massey Website 

Kate Massey Instagram @KateMasseyWrites

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 This book talks about pain and trauma from a spiritual and clinical perspective. My hope and prayer is that you can learn from the traumas I have faced. The good and the bad coping skills used are addressed. Choosing to work through pain and trauma is not only one of the most challenging choices we make, but it is also very rewarding. Your trauma doesn't have to define or control you.

The Deception of Self-Protection

When we experience severe trauma or chronic pain, our immediate physiological and spiritual reflex is self-protection. We build walls, develop hyper-vigilant habits, and attempt to manage our environments to ensure we are never caught off guard again. But as Kate directly reminds us, self-protection was never our job. That is God’s job.
When we step into the role of our own protector, we construct a faulty decision-making architecture. We begin to make major life choices out of survival mode rather than current wisdom. Even worse, we lock out the Holy Spirit. Kristen shares a raw account of the moment the Holy Spirit got in her face and told her to stop using the survival language of "sucking it up." Why? Because when we minimize our own wounds to survive the night, we actively block God from acting as the true Comforter in our lives.

When Clinical Skill Meets Supernatural Deliverance

One of the most profound segments of the conversation tackles the unnecessary dividing line between professional mental health tools and supernatural deliverance. As a clinically trained therapist with a master’s degree, Kate openly testifies to the visceral, physical reality of demonic spirits leaving her body during deep prayer and revival experiences.
“The capital C church often doesn't want to acknowledge supernatural things because we don't understand them,” Kate notes. The truth is that clinical counseling and supernatural deliverance are not opposing forces—they are a holistic pathway. When spirit-filled counselors utilize godly discernment, they can see where a chemical imbalance ends and a spiritual assignment begins.
This is incredibly vital for individuals with undeveloped spiritual gifts. Kate and Kristen discuss how a child or adult with an open gift of spiritual sight (a seer) or an intense gift of mercy can easily internalize the spiritual atmosphere around them, mistakenly believing they are suffering from severe mental health crises. Without a tight-knit, mature spiritual community to help train and mature these senses, these gifts become weights instead of tools for the Kingdom.

Resources Mentioned in this Episode

Satisfy the Hunger in Your Heart!
The prophetic movements in church history and in contemporary life are fed by two mighty streams:

1. the prophet, whose revelation is primarily verbal
2. the seer, whose revelation is more visionary

While the role of the prophet is familiar, less is known about The Seer dimension. To many people, these visionary prophets remain mysterious, other-worldly, and even strange. Knowledge dispels misunderstanding, and you will discover the prophetic power of dreams, visions, and life under the open heavens.

Questions answered include:

1. How does visionary revelation happen? Can it be trusted?
2. Where does it fit into your life and today’s church?
3. Can any believer become a seer? Is it a prophetic dimension reserved for the spiritually-gifted?

The Seer will move your heart and stir up your hunger for intimacy with God because the seer’s goal is to reveal the person of Christ Jesus—to you, today.

Author's Copies

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Shifting the Weight of Worth

How do we bridge that heavy, 18-inch gap between our analytical head knowledge and our actual heart? How do we stop staring at our brokenness and start walking in our true identity?
Kate’s answer is direct, clear, and challenging: It is a radical choice of surrender.
When you look at an abstract piece of art, you might have opinions, culture might have opinions, and critics might shout their definitions. But your opinion does not hold the same weight as the one who held the brush. You do not get to define yourself. Your price, your beauty, and your structural worth were permanently settled thousands of years ago on a wooden cross.
If your personal narrative or your coping skills are out of alignment with what the Master Artist says about you, it’s time to turn down the volume of a demanding culture and surrender the canvas back to Him. Let the King of the Universe step onto the field of your pain and show you what He was painting all along.

If we just took a split second and recognized that God was there in the pain and the trauma with you—He never left you. If He allowed it to happen, how would our beliefs shift if we focused on what He was trying to teach us in that moment, instead of 'how dare He let this happen to me?'" —Kate Massey

Coaching Church Activation: The 18-Inch Journey

Head knowledge is not enough—truth must travel the heavy 18 inches from your mind to your heart.

The Action: Take ten minutes of silence today. Do not ask for a list of needs; instead, ask Jesus one question: "God, what were You teaching me in my past pain, and where were You holding me?" Write down the first thought that brings you peace. This is how you move from passive listening to active, two-way dialogue with Heaven.

👉 MOVE THIS TRUTH FROM YOUR HEAD STRAIGHT TO YOUR HEART: Kate and I have curated a special gift for you today. Download the Free printable PDF Listener Journal and Guide in the show notes so you can sit with this wisdom long after the audio stops!

God experiences our life with us. He does not watch us from a distance; He enters into the canvas of our suffering to rewrite the final portrait." — C.S. Lewis

MEET THE AUTHOR & PODCASTER

I’m Kristen Wambach. With over 30 years of ministry leadership, I serve as an author, transformation coach, and spiritual investigative journalist. As the host of the globally ranked Interviewing Jesus Podcast, my mission is to offer a safe, honest path for your heart—shattering religious static and replacing it with Monday-morning logic and real kingdom authority.​

In this specific episode with licensed counselor Kate Massey, we step past polite church platitudes to look at the raw nitty-gritty of deep soul restoration. As an ordained pastor who has walked through the trenches of inner healing, I know firsthand what it means to look past our broken coping habits, tear down survival mindsets, and move truth down those heavy 18 inches from the head straight to the heart. I am entirely sold out to helping you step out of performance metrics, reclaim your spiritual inheritance, and let the Master Artist speak your true name over your life. Let’s live Spiritually BRAVE together!

FINAL THOUGHTS

We learned that faith doesn't erase pain; it meets us in the middle of it. By inviting God into our raw truth, we shift from a victim mindset into radical restoration. You are not a manufacturing error; you are a masterpiece, and it is time to stop running from your history and start letting the Master Artist define your true identity.

Join the Conversation & Thank You!

Now, I want to hear from you. We unpacked a lot of heavy lifting today—from dropping our survival mindsets to letting the Master Artist reclaim the canvas of our lives. So tell me: What is the one coping pattern or label you’ve been holding onto that you are officially ready to lay at His feet today? Are you ready to let Him call you a masterpiece?
Drop your thoughts in the comments below, ask a question, or simply type "I AM SURRENDERED" to anchor this truth in your spirit today. I read and respond to every single comment, and I can't wait to see what doors open as you start your own private conversation with Him!
Thank you so much for leaning in with us today. Your time, your heart, and your dedication to this family mean the world to me. My prayer is that these soul-stirring episodes continue to give you exclusive access to the heart of Jesus and the practical kingdom authority you need to rewrite your lifestyle. Remember, you were uniquely designed to live Spiritually BRAVE.
I bless your walk this week, and I will talk to you again next time!
In Oneness and Blessings, Kristen Wambach