Righteousness, Peace, and Joy: Decoding the Signals of God's Presence ❖ 295

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God's primary instrument of speaking is the increase and the withdrawing of His presence—and it's mediated by righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." —Pastor David Chotka

The River, The Referee, and The Voice with Rev. Dr. David Chotka

Have you ever sat in the quiet—or in the middle of a chaotic Monday morning—and wondered: "Is that an interior thought from my own mind, or is Jesus actually giving me a tap on the shoulder?" 

In this episode of the Interviewing Jesus Podcast, host Kristen Wambach welcomes author, international speaker, and founder of Spirit-Equip Ministries, Rev. Dr. David Chotka. Moving far past surface-level church performance and dry academic theology, Pastor David breaks down the practical, everyday mechanics of hearing God's voice and recognizing the subtle signals of His presence.
Together, Kristen and David unpack how Holy Spirit uses the ebb and flow of Righteousness, Peace, and Joy (Romans 14:17) as an internal compass. You’ll discover why God’s peace isn't just an emotion—it is an active "referee" (Colossians 3:15) that sifts your decisions, gives loving warnings, and confirms when you are standing on solid ground.

Key Takeaways & Highlights in This Episode:

• The Anatomy of the "Tap on the Shoulder": How God primarily speaks through the increase or withdrawal of His presence in your spirit.
• Decoding Romans 14:17: * Righteousness: A sweet, un-distracted walk with Jesus.
  • Peace: Internal serenity acting as the arbiter and referee of your soul.
  • Joy: An explosive internal celebration alive inside you, regardless of external circumstances.
• The Greek Lexicon Discovery (BDAG): The Greek word behind "rule" in Colossians 3:15 (brabeuō) and how ancient referees, arbiters, and judges blow the whistle on our choices.
• Stories of Divine Accuracy:
  • How David learned discernment after walking away from a job with no peace.
  • The miraculous story of the $108 cash gift given to two friends at 4:00 PM on a Friday.
  • Kristen’s $800 farm debris pile and the precise ways God meets personal needs.
• The Banks of the River (Practical Activation): How building a simple 5-minute daily devotional habit creates the structural riverbanks for living water to flow without overwhelm.

SUMMARY

Have you ever found yourself sitting in the quiet of your kitchen—or driving through heavy morning traffic—and wondering: “Is that God talking to me, or am I just listening to the noise in my own head?”
In this powerful episode of the Interviewing Jesus Podcast, I sit down with author, international speaker, and founder of Spirit-Equip Ministries, Rev. Dr. David Chotka, for a deep, honest dive into the practical mechanics of hearing God’s voice. Moving past sterile academic theories and rigid church formulas, Pastor David shares how ordinary believers can recognize the gentle "tap on the shoulder" from the Holy Spirit in their everyday lives.
We unpack how Holy Spirit uses Righteousness, Peace, and Joy (Romans 14:17) as an active internal compass. David breaks down his groundbreaking doctoral research on the Greek word behind Colossians 3:15 (brabeuō), revealing how Christ’s peace serves as an internal "referee" or "arbiter" that sifts our decisions, signals yellow-flag warnings, and confirms when we are standing on solid ground. From raw stories of walking away from wrong doors to miraculous $108 cash provisions and $800 farm debris piles, this episode equips you to drop religious performance, simplify the supernatural, and live Spiritually BRAVE!

Let the peace be the referee that tells you if you're in or out of the game. When the peace waxes large, that's the referee saying it's fair ball. When the peace diminishes, he's saying you're on the edge of a penalty." —Pastor David Chotka

The River, The Referee, and The Voice By Kristen Wambach

If you have spent any length of time in religious circles, you have probably been told that you need to "hear God's voice." But so few people actually take the time to step into the quiet room with you and explain what that inner whisper feels like when it intersects your normal Monday morning.
For years, through my own walk with Jesus, my podcast, and my published books and prayer journals, my heart’s mission has been singular: to strip away the complex theological jargon and help everyday believers access the raw, supernatural heart of Jesus. We don't need high-tech church programs or high-pressure formulas. We need relational simplicity.
That is precisely why my recent conversation with Rev. Dr. David Chotka resonated so deeply with me. David holds a doctorate from Gordon-Conwell, studied under giants like Gordon Fee, and has trained leaders across six continents—yet the second he sits down, his academic titles melt away into the heart of a gentle, humble practitioner.

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Righteousness, Peace, and Joy: Decoding the Signals of God's Presence ❖ 295
The River, The Referee, and The Voice with Rev. Dr. David Chotka
Transcript with speaker names and timestamps :
Kristen Wambach (00:01.849) Welcome. What happens when an expert in biblical scholarship steps out of the seminary classroom and into a decades-long journey of learning how to discern the gentle tap on the shoulder from the Holy Spirit? Think about that. What happens?
You get a man who doesn't just study prayer. He lives out in the raw, messy, everyday moments of life. Welcome to Interviewing Jesus Podcast. I am your host, Kristen Wombeck, and today we are looking past religious performance and high-tech church formulas and programs to explore what it practically looks like to hear the voice of Jesus. Let me ask you this.
To hear the voice of Jesus today for that situation, circumstance, that love hug that you are just so hungry for. What does that look like in the middle of your normal Monday morning all the way to Friday night? What does that look like? Joining me today is author, international speaker, and founder of Spirit Equipped Ministries, Reverend Dr. David Chatka and David holds a doctorate from Gordon Cronwell. He taught leaders across six continents and studied under giants like Gordon Fee, but more than his degrees. David carries raw personal stories of miraculous healing, navigating heavy grief, and learning how to sift through the noise of life. To recognize when the Lord is getting your attention. Get ready to simplify the supernatural. Can I say that again? Get ready to simplify the supernatural. Drop the religious routine and live spiritually brave. Welcome to the show, Pastor David.
David Chotka (02:11.103) Well, I that's very impressive in pr introduction. You actually pronounced my name correctly. And so I'm very thankful for that. And you know, I'm just an ordinary guy. We hear all that funny stuff about who I am. It's it's almost embarrassing. At any rate. Yes, I I I I I've studied hearing the voice of Jesus for a very, very, very long time, and I think it's the most important spiritual discipline. In fact
Kristen Wambach (02:15.786) Woo.
David Chotka (02:37.715) I believe that it's the primary spiritual discipline that Jesus of Nazareth practiced all through his and if you get this right, the rest will fall into place. If you don't get this right, you're gonna be stumbling and bumbling and fumbling and mumbling. And
Kristen Wambach (02:42.730) I agree. I agree. Yeah.
Kristen Wambach (02:51.834) Yeah. And we're here, David and I agree, we're here to just erase that hopscotch path of bumbling and stumbling to help you. So jumping right in, David has provided us with a fabulous resource. It's his number one best selling book. Hey, are you there? It's me, God. What a perfect title. You offer a practical guide for recognizing when God gets our attention. We're putting the links to your book and Spirit Equipped Ministries right there in our show notes. So turn in your ears, people, because I have taken really good notes for you, making it easy for you to connect with Pastor David. But right now, I want to take us past those published pages and into that quiet room where we just listen and hear Holy Spirit. David. Take us into that exact second when you stopped running on that religious routine and felt that gentle tap on your shoulder for the very first time. What did that very first time?
David Chotka (04:01.569) Very first time. listen. The first time I got it wrong, the second time I got it right. So the first time when the Holy Spirit tried to talk to me, I was just a young man trying to f to get a job, to pay the bills, that kind of thing. I was a university student, new to the Lord, and my was a first believer in my family. And I remember the moment I was trying to get work and I had lined up working with a great big organization. I had slam dunked the interview. I'd got the I did the interview in January for a May start as you know for for summer, that kind of thing. And two weeks before May the first arrived, I got the phone call from the company because there was a big depression going on in the economy. The job was gone and I couldn't have that job. So I remember panicking. My parents ran a diner. We had enough to eat, but there wasn't enough to pay me a real living wage or to make savings for future education and that kind of thing. And it was a really kind of how do I say this? The scripture says if a man doesn't work, neither let him eat. And I was eating and I was working in the restaurant, but I wasn't making it enough to be able to pay for my future education or things like that. And I remember this moment. So I was in the restaurant working away with my parents, and I was, you know, I had two jobs at that point. Here's what it was. Number one job was trying to find a job.


Kristen Wambach (05:15.962) Okay.
David Chotka (05:18.209) Because the scripture says you need to work. The number two job was helping my parents in the diner during rush hour, right? So I was doing I was doing that and this customer came in. And in those days, you had to have a resume typed out on a piece of paper. You had to shine your shoes. You had to have a white shirt, had to look attractive. You know, you had to comb your hair the right way. I haven't got any hair left, but in those days you had to do this. And I was but in the diner, you you have an apron on, you're serving customers, you're taking orders. This guy always came in at the same time every day. He came in for 10:30 for coffee and 1:15 for my mother's homemade soup. So this guy's name was Stan, and I'd known him for years, and he'd watch me work. Anyway, he looked at me and he said, David, I heard you lost you the opportunity to go to work for that big company. I said, Stan, it's terrible. I won't be able to go to school if I don't earn the money. And he said, Well, I can't offer you a good job, but I could offer you a minimum wage job. And there was at that point in my city, it was a General Motors city.


Kristen Wambach (05:59.910) Yeah.
David Chotka (06:12.811) And there was layoffs happening, twenty two and a half percent unemployment in that city at that time. It's the what we call the rust belt now. Anyway, nobody was hiring anybody, and this guy was offering Miss Job. And I What is it? He said, It's delivery truck driving. Would you do that? And by the way, it was delivering pantyhose and greeting cards. Now you want you to know it was store to store, not door to door. Okay, you need to know that. Anyway. So this guy offered me this job and he said, Look


Kristen Wambach (06:17.583) Hmm.


Kristen Wambach (06:37.221) Separate like opinios, yes.
David Chotka (06:41.047) F for this to work, it's simple. You just go to this address, you walk in and you you just sign the form with the work form. You have to be bonded for three months if you're gonna take this job, because I have to know that when I train you, I got three months of work coming out of you. And I said, Okay, that's good. And so my father looked at me and I looked at him. He gave me the keys of the car, I started to drive. And here's what happened, and this was the defining moment where I first recogni I didn't recognize it the first time. As I was driving along the road, my peace vanished. I went from being joyful and bubbly and happy and delighted. And as I was driving along in the car, I began to feel uneasy at first and I thought it was nerves, you know, and then all vestiges of joy and peace and my walk with Jesus was distracted and I couldn't think straight. And I show up at this address, and there's a big red brick building with Ivy all over the the sides of the building, and there was a loading dock with a small door. And I walked up to this company and I knocked on the the loading dock door and there was no other doors that I could see. And I looked around and there was nobody who answered the door. I got back in my dad's vehicle, having not succeeded in getting inside that building. And I drove back. And as I drove away, the peace returned, the joy returned, the laughter returned. And I thought, my dad's gonna think I'm an idiot. I couldn't find the door to get into I wonder if I got the address wrong. So I walked back into the restaurant. He said, Well, son, when do you start? I said, Dad, I couldn't find the front door. I will not tell you what my daddy said. It would imperil your sanctification. But he was not impressed. He was not impressed. So so here's what happened. That was the 10 30. Then the guy comes back for soup in the afternoon. And he said, David, you didn't come to the to the shop. I said, Stan, it's the craziest thing. I I saw a loading dock. I saw vines on the Did I get the address wrong? And he started to laugh. He said, no, no, I should have told you. You got to go all the way around to the back of the building, and the vines have overgrown a trellis, and you got to go around the trellis to get to the office. All of our business is by phone and by by work order. So that's where the office is. I said, okay. My dad gave me the keys, and I started to drive. And as I was driving, once again my spirit turned to lead. Now I didn't know that was how God speaks. I had not a clue. I got myself to the place where that where this place was. I walked into the back door. I found the trellis.
David Chotka (09:00.651) I went inside and there was a lovely secretary, middle-aged lady, English accent. She looks at me and said, you're Mr. Chotka. here is the work order. Mr. Shepherd said you have to sign here and you can start tomorrow. And I held the pal the pen in my hand and I almost threw up. I mean, it was that uneasy. And because the scripture said, if a man doesn't work, neither let him eat. I signed the form, I forced myself, I got back in the vehicle, I drove home. And here's what happened. I was supposed to start when he came for his coffee the next day at 10 30. He was going to bring the vehicle. We're going to drive over. I didn't sleep that night. I felt awful. I felt terrible. And the phone rang first thing in the morning at eight o'clock in the morning when the company opened. It was another job for the Department of Highways offering twice the wage with a return policy and a health care package and a dental care package. And I had given my word to a family for So with great reluctance, I said no to the other job because I'd given my word and I I I I did this thing. And then the Lord called me to the ministry. That was the first time I realized that God doesn't always speak with, you know, a vision or a dream or a scripture leaping off the page. It was, it was no peace. My my presence to the spirit was completely gone. But the second time was the fun one. Okay. So this is two weeks later. Two weeks later.


Kristen Wambach (10:20.183) Okay.
David Chotka (10:21.261) Okay, so I had I was going to three different Bible studies because I was a brand new Christian and I wanted to learn scripture as much as I could. I couldn't get my nose out of the Bible. So I went to it, I went to a Tuesday noon, a Thursday noon, and a and a fr a Thursday night. There was a Friday night prayer and praise and then church on Sunday morning and Sunday evening. I was doing that because I wanted to learn the Bible. Anyway, in three of those studies, the theme was the same: tithing, giving 10%. Now I was a cheapskate and I didn't have any money.


Kristen Wambach (10:45.115) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (10:49.933) But you know, three different studies. And I remember saying to the Lord, I don't want to give 10%. What are you going to do with my money? Eat it? You know, God, you don't need money. I need to eat. You don't need to eat. What's the big deal? So I get to the third study, and I have just said to the Lord, What do you I need to eat? You don't need to eat. I I so God, what are you gonna with why I why should I give you money? And I walked into this study and I sat down with the guy who was the it was a brethren elder, he was teaching, and I said, What's this thing about practicing the tithe? He said, What are you gonna do with the Lord's money? Eat it. So here's what I did. I started to set aside, I had a part-time job and I had my diner with my parents, and I'd just begun at this company. We're paying the minimum wage. I put the 10% inside an envelope and there wasn't much there. Anyway, after a few weeks, I got to $120 in the tithe fund. That's what I had. And I didn't know about the hot the storehouse. I didn't, I was so new to the Lord, I simply didn't know.


Kristen Wambach (11:34.521) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (11:48.271) Yeah.
David Chotka (11:48.481) So I remember though feeling prompted that I should give the money away because it was God's and I'd spend it if I kept looking at it. So I knelt beside the bed and I said, God, who should I give the money to? I belonged to a Bible study university, and there was a couple going to go overseas. They were going to go to Southeast Asia and they had to clear up some debts to get there. And as soon as I knelt, I thought of them. It was a Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon. You need to know this. Friday at four, that detail is really important.


Kristen Wambach (11:59.173) Mm.


Kristen Wambach (12:17.679) Mm.
David Chotka (12:18.016) So as I prayed about what I should do with this, I said, Well, Lord, I don't want to give the whole bunch away. how about 110? And I'll have a little 10 bucks left or something. And the only thing I can say that happened next was the piece diminished and got smaller. And I felt in my spirit that I was to try again and it was supposed to be lower. I said, 109, and the piece got bigger. And then I said, How about I give Derek and Deb 108 dollars? And suddenly the fire of the spirit rose inside of me. The joy exploded. And I jumped to my feet and I said, Yes, yes, yes. I'm going to give Derek and Deb 108 bucks. You gotta know something. I was I was a I was a tightwad. So this is a miracle. And I even wanted to do this. So I took a scripture verse, and I my God shall supply all your needs according to his riches and glory in Christ Jesus. I shoved it in an envelope. I put $108 in cash. And at seven o'clock that night, I got myself over to where Derek and Deb lived. I've been to their home many times.
Kristen Wambach (12:58.159) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (13:18.060) They didn't. So here's what happened. The porch light was burned out and it was it was dusk. It was getting it was getting dark. And I snuck up to there and I opened the mailbox, put the money in, quietly closed it, and I ran away because I didn't want them to know I was giving them money. Right. It was Friday at seven o'clock when I did this. Anyway, two weeks later, I'm curious. I really want to know what's going on. Cause I gave 108 bucks to Derek and Deb, and they were friends, and I used to walk my dog up and


Kristen Wambach (13:25.083) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (13:32.730) Right.


Kristen Wambach (13:40.571) Uh-huh.
Kristen Wambach (13:43.961) And that was huge. That was huge.
David Chotka (13:45.487) Yeah, I used to walk my dog up and down that street. It was three blocks from my friend's home. So anyway, I was walking down the street hoping that Derek and Deb would see me. I kept walking up and down. Derek stuck his head out and said, Hey David, David, come over here. Our God has supplied all our needs according to his riches and glory. We just had a miracle. And I thought, man. And I was feeling so smug. my heavens. It was obnoxiously smug. And I go into this place and he sits me down and I said, What happened, Derek? thinking that, you know, I'm I'm, you know I'm I have knowledge he doesn't have. And he looks at me and he said, David, two weeks ago, on Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon, my wife and I made the decision that I would have to finish my degree. I was shy two courses before we went to Southeast Asia. We both worked at that hotel over there. They pay Wednesdays on the 15th and 30th. And the 30th was the fifth was going to be the Wednesday night. And the course was to begin on Monday. And we had to pay it in cash, and we couldn't get either of our parents on the phone. We had fuel in the car, we had food in the pantry, but all that we had was $50, and the price of the course was $158. So on Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon, we knelt down and said, God, would you raise up someone to give $108 in cash to us? So that we can pay for the course that we have to pay for on Monday, so I could complete my degree. And here's what happened: I snuck up in the mailbox on Friday night. I put it in. Of course, no mail happens on Saturday. And so they spent the whole weekend not looking in the mailbox. And the money's sitting in the mailbox. They're crying out to God. They're praying. And on Sunday afternoon, the man gets assurance in his heart that the money was there, it was going to be taken care of. He says, I we don't still don't have it, we don't get paid till Wednesday. And as he was going out, he decided that he would write a check for the whole amount, even though he didn't have it. He opened the mailbox and found the money and was exact. Now I'm sitting in the room and I realized two things. Number one, they had a need at Friday at four o'clock in the afternoon and they prayed. Number two, I heard that I was to give to them $108 in cash, and it was specific, and the Lord wouldn't let me give 110 or 109.


Kristen Wambach (15:55.513) Hey.
Kristen Wambach (16:01.083) Yes, you did. Okay.
David Chotka (16:05.218) He made me give him 108 bucks. And the thing that was amazing to me, I heard it precisely and I got it completely correct. And I obeyed and I received joy as I did that. I also learned that sacrifice is part of service and that God would supply. All that came together in those two moments, one where I failed and the other where I succeeded. And so began the journey of attempting to understand.
Kristen Wambach (16:17.551) Yes.
David Chotka (16:33.368) How God speaks. And here is what I learned through those two events. God's primary instrument of speaking is the increase and the withdrawing of his presence. And it's mediated by righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Now, listen, I believe in miracles. I believe in angels showing up and giving you divinely appointed guidance. I believe in prophetic utterances, and I believe in miraculous divine, you know. angels appearing and telling you what to do and that kind of thing. I believe the star moved in the sky for the magi and that the big angels appeared to Mary and Joseph and told them they're going to carry the Messiah and the burning bush happened for Mo when he was hearing the voice. And those events are real and from time to time they happen in current current current life. But I believe that the primary means by which God speaks is the increase of the withdrawing of his presence and there are scriptures that speak to it.


Kristen Wambach (17:21.263) They do.
Kristen Wambach (17:29.827) Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Chotka (17:31.082) I usually go to Romans fourteen, seventeen, and I go to Colossians three, fifteen. Now do you want me to unpack that or you want we you got a different question for me?
Kristen Wambach (17:35.685) Yeah. Actually I I wanted to I wanted to piggyback on what what you said, the 'cause some we have a lot of people that have different learning applications, different teaching way that they understand what is being spoken. So when I hear that and in my experience the drawing and the increasing of the spirit literally changes like a vibration within my body. So I w wanted
David Chotka (18:07.340) You know
Kristen Wambach (18:08.185) to point out the different ways that tangible touch or or sometimes you know you can feel you can feel the spirit over the top of your head. There's so many different ways that you can sense the spirit increasing or decreasing. And it doesn't mean that Holy Spirit went anywhere, but it's from within you like if you just you know, walked briskly back and forth down your street, your b blood pressure would be going and if you checked your pulse, it would be increased. So it's the same type of thing when you feel the spirit increase or di decrease.
David Chotka (18:50.786) Yes. Now here's the issue. there have been times where I've felt something and I was wrong. And there have been times when I felt something and I was right. And so, and there have been times when I have had a bias. You know, let's say for example, I don't know about you. I am always at odds with some politician somewhere sometimes. Okay. And sometimes people that I love say something bad and I believe them, and people that I distrust say something good and I don't trust them.
Kristen Wambach (18:56.153) Hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (19:20.236) And so there's this process of trying to know how God is speaking when. And here is the principle that I teach in the Hey, Are You There It's Me God book. I say, number one, I won't teach something unless it's clearly in the scripture. And whenever I tell a story, I will anchor it in the scripture. And by the way, here are the marks that the scripture says what it feels like when the voice speaks. Now you just named one right there that I hadn't considered here.


Kristen Wambach (19:24.634) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (19:28.206) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (19:45.547) If you think about Luke 24, where the two disciples on the first resurrection day are going down the road. Of course, you know, listen, if if you lose someone, do you pray? Well, the answer is, of course, yes. What do you do if your God is dead? I mean, your God is dead. And these two guys were walking down the road on two days after the crucifixion, day number three has just started to dawn. They're going down the road and they they can't talk to their God. And so they're talking to each other.


Kristen Wambach (19:57.391) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (20:00.822) Mm.
David Chotka (20:16.556) And Jesus of Nazareth shows up. You know, and they have this vibrant
Kristen Wambach (20:18.329) Yeah. But y I mean we could jump in there. Why is it that they thought they couldn't talk to him?
David Chotka (20:25.068) Well, because he was dead. He had they hadn't he th this is the first resurrection appearance. It that he'd been crucified on Good Friday.
Kristen Wambach (20:29.059) That's right. They hadn't experienced him as spirit.
David Chotka (20:34.262) Yeah, well, they they were in desolation on Saturday because they didn't know what was going on. They're in anguish, they're in hiding, they're walking down the road on day three, and they don't know it. But Jesus of Nazareth is beside them as they're talking. And so here's what now this is a very, very important text for for for discernment. This is a very important one. So they walk down the road. He's sharing scripture with them about the two things the Messiah was supposed to do. He was supposed to die, and then he was supposed to rise again.


Kristen Wambach (20:38.436) No.


Kristen Wambach (20:46.437) Yes he is.
Kristen Wambach (20:58.743) Mm. Mm.
David Chotka (21:01.674) And there were two Messiah theories in Judaism. There was a suffering servant material that you find in in the servant songs in Isaiah, particularly Isaiah 53 or Isaiah 49. You have this language about sure man of sorrows and acquainted with grief and so on. And you have Jewish scholars saying, Is there going to be one Messiah who suffers? Is that Israel who suffers? What about this conquering this conquering guy who's gonna raise the righteous dead? And and they they didn't understand.


Kristen Wambach (21:04.955) Hmm.
David Chotka (21:31.747) That those two Messiah scriptures were actually one Messiah. And so Jesus starts to explain to these two guys, Cleopas and his friend, whoever he was. And as he's talking about this, that it's evening, they're supposed to walk short because it was a Sabbath day. He looked like he's going to go away. He they invite him in for dinner. He breaks the bread, and suddenly they recognize that it's him and he vanishes. Now, then they say this phrase. Now, this is the important phrase for discernment. They said,


Kristen Wambach (21:56.101) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (22:00.107) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (22:01.912) Did not our hearts burn hot within us while he was speaking to the script from the scriptures to us along the way. So there's four marks that show up in that passage that have to do with hearing the voice. One is the is the heart of flame, the burning heart. And so that's a classic mark of evangelical Methodism. was not our hearts strangely warm, is what John Wesley said when he got saved. The second thing is he was speaking about.


Kristen Wambach (22:20.250) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (22:27.875) Yeah.
David Chotka (22:31.528) Scripture while they were experiencing this internal testimony or witness of the Spirit with a heart of flame. Thirdly, it pointed to Jesus. And fourthly, two guys experienced it at the same time. Okay, so you have four marks of what it means to hear the voice together. The internal fire, the scripture, pointing to Jesus together.


Kristen Wambach (22:32.751) Mm.


Kristen Wambach (22:45.477) They did.


Kristen Wambach (22:51.983) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (23:00.450) That's amazing. Now that's one of the scriptures that I unpack in the book, Hey, Are You There It's Me God book. The other ones that I think are really important to bear recognize. Now, scripture has all kinds of accounts where it says the Lord spoke. You know, God appeared to Abraham and God spoke to him, or God spoke to Moses, or whatever. And we have this external observation thing, but we don't have very many scriptures that speak about what it feels like inside the internal breast of the believer. And so the study that I did in my doctoral work.


Kristen Wambach (23:12.937) I know.
David Chotka (23:30.572) was to look at each of the scriptures that spoke about what it felt like and then try to give language to describe it so the Georgian average believer doesn't think they're idiots or or recognizes when this is happening to them, right? So
Kristen Wambach (23:46.588) Share with you an experience similar, unique to that. So years ago, God pointed out a house for us for John and I, a house for us. And you know it's like, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, are you sure? And da-da-da-da. And where he came in and actually confirmed it was his. Is that all of our very dear friends and community started having dreams about our house? They had dreams about them being in our house. They could describe that house to us. It was the coolest thing. That community, what'd you call that? You called the the the the the together. We talked about it briefly.
David Chotka (24:31.724) Yes, now you
David Chotka (24:36.738) Yes. I I do believe that discernment, hearing the voice of Jesus, is always better when there are multiplied witnesses who are saying the same thing. And here's the reason why. Every now and then God will speak through someone that I don't like and I will disregard it because I don't like it. Yeah. Or listen, every now and then somebody that I love will say something dumb and I'll listen.


Kristen Wambach (24:47.055) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (24:54.696) W Really? we could we could hang out on this one.
David Chotka (25:05.614) Because I love them, right? And so here's what you need when you're in the middle of the discernment process. I was speaking to a youth group about this, and of course there's young girls and there's young guys and they're looking at each other and they're trying to figure out whether or not the pink cloud is going to descend and cause their heart to thump. Anyway, what I said to them is if you're trying to discern something, you and you need somebody unbiased in this matter. So if you're going to ask the girl out, don't pray with the boyfriend.


Kristen Wambach (25:13.743) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (25:29.868) It's not gonna work. There's bias there. This is not a helpful thing, right? And so here's the here's the bottom line. You always need to make sure that when you're in the middle of a discernment process, that you are recognizing that everybody's got biases. Everybody's got sin patterns. Everybody's got e issues. Everybody has people that they love who are unwise, and everybody's got friends who they don't like who are wise. And every and now every now and then you're gonna get hoarse sense from a good friend.


Kristen Wambach (25:34.821) Goodness.


Kristen Wambach (25:55.291) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (25:59.009) And that's a marvelous thing. Horse sense. Yeah, God, God speaks through horse sense. And by the way, God spoke through Balaam's donkey, too. And so the bottom line is you don't need to be a Bible scholar to hear the voice. God spoke through Balaam's donkey. And by the way, Pharaoh, king of Egypt, was not a Bible scholar. You know, he he wasn't. And God spoke to Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and raised up a slave boy to tell him what was going on. And actually, at that point, Joseph didn't have a Bible, right?
Kristen Wambach (25:59.814) Horse since? Hor did you say horsein? Okay. yeah, yeah.
Kristen Wambach (26:12.367) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (26:26.681) Yes. No.
David Chotka (26:26.744) There was no Bible because Moses hadn't been born yet, and he wrote he wrote the first five books. By the way, God spoke to Nebuchadnezzar, and by the way, God spoke to the king of Nineveh, you know. I have to tell you something. When Jonah went to Nineveh, he didn't want to go because Nineveh's people had fought his people, and he probably had relatives get killed by that guy. He hated Nineveh. And God wanted to speak to someone he detested. And so
Kristen Wambach (26:36.869) Yes.


Kristen Wambach (26:46.715) Probably.


Kristen Wambach (26:53.819) Yeah.
David Chotka (26:54.122) In the discernment process, when we are attempting to hear the voice, God may use you to speak to someone you detest because the Lord's calling all of us to know him. God is calling all of us to walk in righteousness, and God is calling all of us to walk in radical forgiveness, and he's calling us to love our enemies. He's calling us to do that. When it gets to the practical application of how this works.


Kristen Wambach (26:57.659) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (27:01.444) No.


Kristen Wambach (27:14.958) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (27:18.434) You need to make sure that you are putting multiplied testimonies alongside yours and that none of them are directing you away from the clear teaching of Scripture. And so you need to be word saturated and you need to be spirit infilled. And you need to be in submission to other people who are Bible saturated and spirit-in-filled. In fact, there's three foundations in Jesus' ministry. He was number one Bible-based. He was number two prayer saturated. And he was number three infilled by spirit and led by spirit. And when when guidance comes, it will include all three elements before you are directed into what it is that Jesus wants you to be, do, or become. And it doesn't matter if you start with the Bible while you're praying, or if you have an experience of the Spirit that drives you to prayer and you find a scripture, or if you are led by the Spirit to a scripture while you're praying.


Kristen Wambach (27:58.349) It will.
David Chotka (28:13.324) It doesn't matter which one is first. All three of them will be the footsteps that will lead you into hearing the voice. Word, spirit, and prayer in combination. Those three spiritual disciplines. And here's what I have discovered. It is very easy to train the Bible. You can get six thousand studies on any kind of book of the Bible off your phone if you need it. But there aren't many books that train people to listen to the spirit. And there's only a few.
Kristen Wambach (28:20.015) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
David Chotka (28:39.960) That actually give people steps to pray when they're reading about prayer. And so we need to train what it is to be prayer saturated. We need to train what it is to be spirit-led. And we need to train what it is to be Bible-based. One of them is taken care of beautifully. I don't need to write books on Bible-based. But the other two, we don me not have much. Now, the culture we live in isn't prayer saturated. The culture Jesus was born into.


Kristen Wambach (28:44.303) Yes.
Kristen Wambach (29:00.643) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Pastor David. Mm-hmm. Yes. They did.
David Chotka (29:09.910) He prayed, Jews prayed three times a day. And Jews memorized scripture. And so Jesus was Bob Nazareth, was born into a prayer-saturated, Bible-believing culture. The only thing that was missing was being spirit-led.
Kristen Wambach (29:20.261) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (29:24.227) Yes. I am the type of I am the type of person and you described it in your eloquent points there is I usually have an encounter, you know, I feel the spirit and I'm showing something in the spirit, and then I'll go, Hello, excuse me, can you explain that please? And then I will be directed to Jesus' humanity and the experiential part.
David Chotka (29:25.336) So he gets in for it.


David Chotka (29:45.570) Yes, exactly.


Kristen Wambach (29:53.561) that he lived that says this will help you understand what I just showed you.
David Chotka (29:59.725) Yes, and so what I look for, and I honestly when I'm trying to discern the voice, I am not settled until I have word and spirit and a communal affirmation of word and spirit that is identical to what I've received. Every now and then you haven't got time to wait for that and you have to stick your neck out. But usually when you're in a discernment process, trying to understand what God is saying, you can take your time. Job A, job B, job C. Church A, Church A, Church C. Do I move to this city? Do I stay here? do I go to that university or this college? what about job you know, th these are the things that are before most people most of the time. In fact I just had to I just had to make a decision.
Kristen Wambach (30:40.795) Question for you because I have a story rumbling around in the back of my head, but your original story that you told about accepting this job, yet the the next day, a different offer that was more prosperous came round. How did God work you through that? I mean, you gave your word to a gentleman, and did you did you continue on with that?


David Chotka (31:03.906) Yes, I did.
David Chotka (31:07.680) I kept my word and I was short the money that I needed to go to school. Here's what the Lord did. when I got I got called to seminary, and when I got called to seminary, I realized that there was actually a a two friends of mine that had moved from my hometown just north of Niagara Falls to the city of Toronto where the seminary was. And they said to me, You can stay with us just for the cost of your food. And so other friends sacrificed and God paid the bills. You see what I'm saying?


Kristen Wambach (31:37.647) Yes, he did.
David Chotka (31:37.827) The original intention was that I would receive more than enough with an offer to be to be able to come back to work the next year with a med thing and dentist thing and that kind of stuff was all in that package. And when I kept my word, he honored that, but other people sacrificed so that I could get there. Then I found a part time job four hours a week, and the four hours paid for my food, and I got myself through that year. And then the next year the Lord opened other doors. There was


Kristen Wambach (31:52.431) Yeah.
David Chotka (32:03.202) There was a scholarship that came to me and there was a bursary that was for students from my region and so on and so forth. And I actually left seminary not owing a dime. And that was now I didn't own anything. I didn't have a stick of furniture. I had bought my first car, you know, on credit because my daddy co signed that kind of thing. But you know, I didn't I got to the place where the Lord met my needs. And this is the most incredible thing. Jesus I wanted that seminary season.
Kristen Wambach (32:11.653) Good.
Kristen Wambach (32:27.323) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (32:30.774) was a season of testing and endurance and suffering and learning to give and so on. I wound up becoming a national director with the Renewal Society, but in the middle of it, I was as broke as broke could be. And in order to become that director, guy didn't know this. I went to a renewal rally. I was sitting in the renewal rally where they were talking about the Lord and talking about generosity and talking about giving. And they passed out commitment cards and they said, you don't have to have the cash in hand. But can you trust God to put the money in your hands to give to us? And I made a commitment in those days. This is a big commitment. 20 bucks a month over and above everything because I had no money. I was broke as broke could be. And other people were paying my freight. And I remember getting letter of the Lord to sign that card, and I did. And I sent the card off to them. And every month I would say, Okay, Jesus, I need that 20 bucks. Where are you going to send it? And one day I didn't have it. It was the last day of the month.
Kristen Wambach (33:02.682) Yes.


Kristen Wambach (33:09.691) Mm.
David Chotka (33:27.468) And I had just enough to pay for my food. And I sat down on a park bench in a busy traffic area next to the bus stop. And while I was sitting there, I looked down and underneath the park bench was a twenty dollar bill. I picked up the twenty dollar bill and I said, I'm gonna use this for rent. And the Lord said, You gotta keep your word. And I popped the twenty dollars in the envelope and I sent it to the Renewal Society. And what I didn't know was that God had a plan. The next year.
Kristen Wambach (33:41.701) Yay. Yes, yes.


Kristen Wambach (33:55.725) Yes, he did.
David Chotka (33:57.303) I became a national director with the Renewal Society, and the precondition for it was that you have one year of consistent giving. They wanted their board members to be consistent givers. And I had paid twenty bucks a month for a whole year. And then I wound up going to this renewal meeting and somebody nominated me from the floor and I became a national director. Anyway, that's
Kristen Wambach (34:04.731) huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm an Yeah.


Kristen Wambach (34:19.886) I'm


David Chotka (34:20.748) This intertwined thing about discernment, obedience, and yielded submission to the voice is just intertwined with everything I think, say and do.
Kristen Wambach (34:25.623) Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm gonna just share because all those those learning and and and allowing the the ebb and flow, we learn the spirit within us. The very first time I wasn't a new Christian, but I was what what I would classify as new baptized in the Holy Spirit, right? just tongue talking, fire, breathing, just I've got so much to learn. Help me, Jesus. And I had, we were living in Aurora and we had a small farm there. And I had four sons under the age of six. So as a busy person. And we were going to a Bible study, my husband and I. And so at this Bible study, one of the leaders took me out into the garage and she was selling this really cute kitchen cabinet. I mean, it was darling. It was so cute. I just loved it. It looked like me and my heart just wouldn't leave alone. And I remember going home and asking God and I never asked him for something that felt alike. You know, I like this. This feels like me. This this feels I and you know we're we're raising a small family. That wasn't something you put on the table. And I remember


David Chotka (35:47.330) Four boys is not a small family.
Kristen Wambach (35:50.756) And she wanted she wanted 800 bucks for that. It's kind of like, where would we squeeze the eight hundred bucks? And and it felt sacrilegious for me to ask God for money, especially for something that wasn't, you know, groceries or diapers or any of that stuff. And so I did. I just went, I I just feel God, like this is important between you and I. This is a personal moment. So I asked God for the money for this kitchen cabinet. And a couple weeks later, I'm doing something in the house, dishes something, and I get a knock on the back door. And I open up the the back farm door, and there's this guy there in well-used uniform clothes, and he was from the railroad, where our our original farm lived, right on the switch track. For the railroad because the farm was put there before 1873 when the train came through. So he walked up to us and he said, You know, we're coming in, we're redoing the tracks and the line there, but we need a di debris pile. Would you happen to let us put a debris pile on your farm for you to burn? And guess how much he was willing to pay us?
David Chotka (37:12.684) Go. Yeah. Exactly.
Kristen Wambach (37:14.657) Eight hundred dollars. Eight hundred dollars.
David Chotka (37:18.284) Actually, I haven't thought this story is not in the book. This is a fun one because here's what happened when I was I was a seminary student. And I needed so I'm a Greek scholar and I have you have to you have to have a a book called The Bauer Bauer Art Gingrich Danker Lexicon, which is you just wouldn't even know what that is. Most people don't care, right? But if you don't have it, you can't do your research. And it was a it was an expensive tome back in the day, and it was
Kristen Wambach (37:22.391) Okay. Uh-huh.


Kristen Wambach (37:41.836) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (37:46.447) Yeah, it was that one of these thick things that only some niche scholar would have to have or you can do study the Greek. And I remember I no, because all the other students had bought up the used copies, right? And so and I don't I don't have the money to do it. So here's what it was. I remember walking into the bookstore, and I still have the Bauer Art and King. I still have it to this day. And in those days it was 3795. And that was like about a hundred and thirty bucks, 140 bucks now, right?


Kristen Wambach (37:50.427) And you can't find it used anywhere.


Kristen Wambach (37:59.420) Kristen Wambach (38:04.197) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (38:15.842) Very expensive volume, and I didn't have the money. And I remember I had to give my 20 bucks to this organization, and I did. And it meant that I couldn't purchase the Bauer Art and Gingrich and I was gonna always have to go to the library and hope the other students weren't using that volume. It was in the reference section. You couldn't check it out. Everybody had to have access to the same volume. That meant that I had to organize my study times around a very narrow window, and it was hard to do.


Kristen Wambach (38:23.771) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (38:41.499) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (38:41.942) And of course I was working and I was trying to do my papers and so on. So so I said, God, I need the Bauer art in Gingrich. It's thirty-seven ninety-five. I need the Bauer. I said. Now it was not something I wanted. It was something I needed for me to be able to succeed in my courses in studying the you know, the Gospel of John in Greek. That's what it was. Introductory Greek is usually the Gospel of John. It repeats itself.


Kristen Wambach (38:50.819) Ha ha.


Kristen Wambach (38:57.733) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (39:02.245) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (39:08.142) by the way, it repeats itself. Anyway, getting back to this. So I remember the moment I prayed the prayer and I walked in to the coffee lounge in the school, and there was an envelope in the mailbox. And I grabbed it and it was $37.95 inside the envelope to the change to the penny. And then I said, Lord, I believe in practicing the tithe.


Kristen Wambach (39:12.921) That's good.
Kristen Wambach (39:29.187) Yes. Come on, Jesus. Uh-huh.
David Chotka (39:34.511) And so somebody wrote a note, said, The Lord has told me to give these to you. I have practiced my tithe, and the tithe goes to you today. It was $37.95. That was the exact price of this book. So I start walking toward the bookstore and I realize, I haven't paid the tithe and there's tax. All right. So I so I said, Okay, God, here's the tithe. And I took the tithe off with me. And I didn't have enough to pay for the book. And I walked into the bookstore.
Kristen Wambach (39:43.130) Yes. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (40:03.788) And they were having a sale. And the bookstore had the book on sale. And when it was all calculated, I had enough after I paid my tithe to pay for the book and to pay for the tax. And it was to the penny. I mean, this is the Lord. He does what he does and he guides as he goes. So there's this thing called crying out in the middle of distress. But there's this, there's this other thing.


Kristen Wambach (40:05.700) Yes.


Kristen Wambach (40:21.868) He does.
David Chotka (40:29.250) Where you need to be aware that there is there are signals when God speaks. His tap on the shoulder comes like and he the anchor texts that I use for this are found in in Paul's writings. The first is Romans fourteen, verse seventeen. It says this. And I don't know if you know this, the book of Romans is not really centered on justification. Justification is an illustration of the primary theme of the book. The primary theme of the book is that Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians were arguing and not fellowshipping together.


Kristen Wambach (40:34.159) There are
David Chotka (40:59.948) And I'll tell they had such varied backgrounds. One would and they were arguing about eating and drinking. And so after Paul goes all the way through the book and says to the Jew first, also to the Greek, you both got to get justified by grace through faith. And by the way, you gotta get infilled by spirit. That's chapter eight. And then nine to eleven is about Jews and Gentiles and how they relate to each other. By the time he gets through all of that, you come to chapter 14 and he says this. Would you guys please accept each other?
Kristen Wambach (41:14.703) Yes. Yes.
David Chotka (41:29.288) Stop the fighting. And then in verse 17, he gives he gives the code to hear the voice. He says this the kingdom of God is not about the things you're fighting about, eating and drinking. The kingdom of God is about three things: righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Now, let me define them. Righteousness is a sweet walk with God.


Kristen Wambach (41:55.608) Okay.
David Chotka (41:58.735) Peace is internal serenity and joy is internal celebration despite external circumstance. Now, if something distracts you from Jesus, that's God saying no. If your peace leaves, that's God saying no. If your joy diminishes, that's God saying no. If while you are praying through something, the peace rises, your joy increases, and your walk with Jesus becomes focused. Odds are that God is talking to you.
Kristen Wambach (42:27.275) Yes. Yeah.
David Chotka (42:28.748) Now you need other people to tell you as well because we have biases. But my favorite one on this one is to go all the way to Colossians chapter 3, verse 15. And this is where the doctor work came in healthy, came in handy. There is a phrase in 315 that goes like this: Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called into one body. The word rule, let the peace rule. I circled that word.


Kristen Wambach (42:36.921) Mm.
David Chotka (42:55.926) And I went into that Bauer art art gingrich danker and I went into Bolton. I did I did the research on this, and here's what I discovered. That word was always used for people who were making decisions that were important. It was used for referees in a sporting match. It was used for arbiters in business decisions.


Kristen Wambach (42:59.323) yeah, you had the book now, yeah.
David Chotka (43:20.694) And it was used for judges who were trying to weigh facts to determine whether or not the person making their claim was telling the truth or telling a lie. And so when you when you put that understanding back into Colossians 3:15, it says that Let the peace be the determining factor in your decision-making process. Let the peace be the judge that tells you yes or no. Let the peace be the arbiter. That sifts and discerns the decision. Let the piece be the referee that tells you if you're in or out of the game. Here's how it works. When the piece, well, when the piece waxes large, that's the referee saying it's fair ball. When the piece diminishes, that's the referee saying you're on the edge of a penalty. If the piece vanishes, he's saying that's a penalty kick. That's you, you you cross the line. Now.
Kristen Wambach (43:59.398) That's really good. That's really good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (44:20.536) Here's what it boils down to. If we can understand that the peace of Jesus is to rule, then our battle is to abide in the presence so we can be conscious of the peace. And while we are in our decision making processes, the presence rises or diminishes and it rules in our hearts, but it calls us into one body. So here's what it means it doesn't just say one person gets the peace.


Kristen Wambach (44:31.632) Yeah.
David Chotka (44:46.988) I listen, when when guys look at pretty girls, they always have peace. Even if the character is terrible. So when girls look at pr handsome guys, it's the same thing, they always have peace, right? But when the day is done, it doesn't say you have it by yourself. It says let the peace rule in your hearts, plural, to which indeed you were called into one body.


Kristen Wambach (44:53.817) You're gonna do with you, yeah.
Kristen Wambach (45:11.717) Mm-hmm. Literal. Mm.


David Chotka (45:16.386) The intention here is that you are mutually submitted to people who are people of peace, and you all together cultivate an awareness of the presence of the Spirit of Jesus, who mediates his presence by the increase or the withdrawing of his peace, and that's how God works.
Kristen Wambach (45:33.564) Good. Yeah. Pastor David, I'd like to put this into a practical application. I I am going to pull that one, the the how your description of the righteousness, peace, and joy, the way that you pulled it from the word rule. People, I'm gonna pull that out. That text will be present because it it is so well spoken and easy to be entreated. So easy to hear. Thank you for sharing that with us. So For the person listening who feels like God is distant because they haven't prayed enough, read enough, all those legalities that we put on ourselves, how can they activate that oneness with Jesus right now in the in the simplest of ways? You know, right where they're sitting, if they're driving their car to the to work, and we just don't want any more performance. We just want to feel that presence. Would you help us with that?
David Chotka (46:33.506) Well yeah, straight up here's the bottom line. The question you have you asked is not a simple one, it's a complex one because the person might be in a sin pattern, or the person might be in the wrong fellowship, or the person might not know that there's a post to experience, the person might not know the Holy Spirit, the person might not be aware of X factors that are getting in the way. If the piece withdraws, something's wrong. Now listen, I don't know what your spiritual gift mix is. Every Christian gets a different gift of c selection.


Kristen Wambach (46:57.859) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (47:01.591) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (47:03.048) I am principally a teacher, in case you didn't notice. Not even I just called my admin to get to order my books on Amazon because I didn't know what I was doing, right? Anyway, getting back to this. so I all of us have different gifts, but every Christian has as his or her heritage, righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Kristen Wambach (47:07.547) Really?


Kristen Wambach (47:22.885) Mm-hmm.
Kristen Wambach (47:27.373) Easy to wait. Yes.
David Chotka (47:29.386) Every Christian, I don't care if you're just getting started, if you're as mature as the day is long. I don't care if you are whatever your denominat is, every kind of Christian is guaranteed those three factors. And the apostle constantly prays that those three things would increase in every Christian life. So if it's not happening, you stop the car and you ask this question Is there something that I need to be doing to get myself back to the place where the peace is restored?


Kristen Wambach (47:46.619) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (47:58.701) And so you you look at your sin issues and you and now if you if you've made a clean slate and there are no sin issues that you're conscious of. If there, by the way, if you're if you're a lion to your boss, you better repent of that. If you are in a position where you're trying to hide something and you don't want to face some issue in your life, you better deal with that, et cetera, et cetera. So this is a more complex answer than I would. It's not just this a quick little fix. You do a fearless moral inventory to determine whether or not there's a barrier between you and God on sin issues. If there's none there.
Kristen Wambach (48:20.827) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (48:29.400) Then you need to see whether or not your church is feeding your spirit. You need to be in fellowship with other believers who understand that the Holy Spirit imparts righteousness, peace, and joy with the Holy Spirit. And by the way, you're not going to be satisfied until it returns. If you are not reading your scripture the way that you need to, then you need to make a fresh commitment to return to saturating your heart and mind and soul in the scripture. But I will say this I don't want to give you a reading program.


Kristen Wambach (48:40.505) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (48:58.358) What I want to do is to have you encounter the Lord while you're reading the text. And if one verse does that, park on that verse while the waves of the Spirit's presence and pleasure rule over you. Okay, now here's the bottom line. Reading programs help, and I use one myself. In fact, I I my my I have seven markers in my Bible. Here's what I do when I read the Bible. I read the I read the Law of Moses. I read
Kristen Wambach (49:09.211) Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.


Kristen Wambach (49:25.989) Uh-huh.
David Chotka (49:26.846) Histories, I read the writings, I read the prophets, I read the gospels, I read the epistles, and I read the the pastoral epistles in Revelation. I have seven markers in my Bible and I read all of them quickly and I narrow in on one text that I soak in. And I let myself be saturated with that one text while I am aware of the great overview of the great themes of scripture. If I don't do that, something's wrong. I will be distracted.


Kristen Wambach (49:34.491) Mm.
David Chotka (49:56.877) So listen, if your righteousness is distracted, you ask this question. Jesus, what is distracting me you from your presence? It could be a relationship, it could be the job you're in, it could be some circumstances that are beyond your control. If if your peace is gone, ask the question. Jesus, what is it that is getting in the way of my godly walk with you that produces peace? If you if you are have no joy in the middle of what you're doing, ask the question, Jesus, show me.
Kristen Wambach (50:21.903) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (50:25.804) The quick fix is read the scripture until you encounter those three things. Get yourself to a godly fellowship where you're surrounded by believers who understand those three elements and let yourself be part of a praying small group cluster that will not be satisfied until you all of you together are understanding that God is speaking to you.
Kristen Wambach (50:49.057) Absolutely. Absolutely.
David Chotka (50:51.886) That's a complex answer to a simple question, but I it's not a simple answer. No one one, two, three, now you're free thing with this. There's there's there's a whole series of complexities in every life. And you know this. You just told me about having four kids and not having time to breathe. There are other ladies out there, they got four kids too. And some of them got six and seven.
Kristen Wambach (50:56.409) Mm-hmm. Mm mm.
David Chotka (51:13.568) Right. And they're trying to get to church and they're trying to pay their tithe and they're trying to read the Bible. And the kid throws up while they're reading the scripture. Right. And then they have to clean up the mess and they don't get their time in. So listen, ever there's somebody else who's a business executive and he's got three contracts on the line, and one of them is tenuous, and he's trying to talk to this one guy while the other two are wondering where his service is. He wants to do the job, he tr he wants to get it done. And the complexities and the stress of his business are are making him


Kristen Wambach (51:22.598) yeah.
David Chotka (51:43.084) have no margin to do what he wants to do to serve Jesus. These are very different lives, but they're real. So you have to create your own spiritual rhythm around the rhythms of your own life.
Kristen Wambach (51:49.207) Mm-hmm. They are.
Kristen Wambach (51:55.769) Ooh, I like the way you said that. That was lovely. Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (51:57.995) Here's the reality. I remember somebody said you got to have a morning quiet time. Well, before 10 o'clock in the morning, that doesn't work for me. So so later on, and then sitting still to pray. No, I gotta walk. No, I had a buddy who said he couldn't do a morning quiet time and he couldn't he couldn't think clearly until 11 o'clock in the morning. And by the way, he couldn't sit still. And so he would take a Bible verse and he would go for a walk.


Kristen Wambach (52:01.947) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (52:11.983) There yeah.
David Chotka (52:25.504) And while he was walking, everybody would leave him alone. He would reflect on the Bible verse and he would talk to Jesus while he was walking. That was his devotional life. Other people need silence. They got to sit still. They don't want clutter. They don't want noise. So they gotta try, they gotta shut the door and hide in the prayer closet. Somebody else can't worship because they can't sing to save their soul. Well, you can put a worship tape on and listen to the music of somebody else who's gifted while you would labor it, making a joyful noise.
Kristen Wambach (52:35.631) That's great. Yeah.
David Chotka (52:55.820) You listen, you create your own rhythm, your own pattern, but it must be consistent. You want consistency in your devotion. So I would say to anybody who doesn't have consistent devotion, I want you to make me a promise. Can you give God five minutes a day? I'm not looking for five hours. I'm looking for five minutes. When they say, Well, I can always do that, then I'll say, Well, five minutes won't be enough.


Kristen Wambach (53:01.701) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (53:14.843) Mm.
David Chotka (53:24.834) But if you promise God you're going to give them five minutes a day and you can be consistent, make it the same five minutes. Which five minutes will it be with expandable time? And they'll tell me I can do that at seven at night, or I can do that at six in the morning, where the number happens to be. I said, now listen, can you expand half an hour? And they'll look at me like they just don't believe it's possible. Their eyebrows will push their hairline back. Okay. Then I'll say, Listen, if you get this part right. The habit is more important than the time. I want the habit. Can you promise me and can you promise the Lord you're going to give them five minutes a day at the same time each day with expandable time up to half an hour? And if they say yes, I will say, All right, now that you're going to give God five minutes, what Bible book are you going to read in case you run out of words? Or they'll say, Well, I don't know. I'll say, Well, why don't you start with something that's simple?


Kristen Wambach (54:15.748) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (54:21.484) Linus and Christmas story. Luke chapter two. Start with Luke. It's stories. And go Luke and John and Acts in a row. And give God five minutes. And if you run out of things to say, read the scripture and then pray what comes out of the scripture. I can do that, Pastor. Well, listen, why don't you get a devotional book and put it beside you too? There's all kinds of good ones out there. Sarah Young's great, you know. And and if you want to go old, if you want to go old school.


Kristen Wambach (54:27.131) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (54:37.925) Yes.
Kristen Wambach (54:44.030) yes. Yes, she is.
David Chotka (54:48.524) You can go my utmost for as high as Oswald Chambers, right? If there's okay. There's another one. Okay, that there's there's fifty of them. Pick one. Okay, pick one. Okay. So here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna give God five minutes every day at the same time. You're gonna read the devotional book, you're gonna read the Bible, and you're gonna tell God. And here's what they will discover. For the first week, they will struggle with five minutes. And in the second week, five minutes won't be enough.
Kristen Wambach (54:51.205) There we go. Or streams well, streams in the desert, that's another good one. I know. I know.


Kristen Wambach (55:07.642) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (55:18.454) And it'll be seven or eight minutes. And in the third week, they're going to discover that one day they're so fascinated by what they're reading and praying, and they're so caught up in the majesty and glory of God, they're going to go half an hour. Now it's going to be a one-off the first time, but then they're going to go back to five minutes the next day and they're going to feel like they wolfed a sandwich instead of had a feast. But at least they got the sandwich. The kid's going to throw up or the phone's going to ring and the business executive is going to have to leave his devotional time to take care of the client.


Kristen Wambach (55:28.165) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (55:37.211) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (55:46.723) But the he can always do the five minutes. He can always do that. And so when you develop against the grain a habit that is consistent for every day at the same time, in the same place, with a plan B, and you have a Bible, you got a devotional book, and you're talking to God, by the time you get to the end of a month, you'll be praying 15, 20 minutes, half an hour, and then there'll be days when all that you can do is praise him.
Kristen Wambach (55:50.137) Always. Yeah.


Kristen Wambach (56:01.083) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (56:15.183) Mm-hmm.
David Chotka (56:16.078) Establish the habit. And the habit always now here's what's happened to me. I usually pray 45 minutes to an hour a day. Sometimes I go as long as three hours. And every now and then life gets away from me and I am required to do five minutes. It feels like I'm wolfing a piece of pizza while I'm on my way to a meeting. But but at least I got the nutrition and God is God is five minutes. And my habit


Kristen Wambach (56:32.379) Mm-hmm.


Kristen Wambach (56:44.314) Yes.
David Chotka (56:46.806) It makes me yearn for more. So you create the devotional habit so that you can fill the habit with the glory of God. That's called Yes, but you gotta have banks for the river to flow. And so the banks for the river is the habit of five minutes a day.


Kristen Wambach (56:49.701) That it does.
Kristen Wambach (56:55.919) Yes. So those rivers of living water flow. Ha ha ha
Kristen Wambach (57:08.844) Yay. Pastor David, would you do us a favor? How can again, how can readers or listeners connect with you and hear more about because you have several books. Yes.
David Chotka (57:21.846) Yes, I do. I've been talking today about the Hey Are You There, It's Me God book, which is which actually is a six week process, five days a week, to teach people about twenty five different ways that God speaks. The way you can get that, you can just Google my name, Chatka, but listen, that's hard. If you go, if you take the word Holy Spirit and take the word spirit, you take the word equipment and cut it in half and just put the word equip, put spirit and equip together. Spiritequip.com. That's my website.
Kristen Wambach (57:25.113) Yes, yes. Uh-huh.


Kristen Wambach (57:48.229) There we are.
David Chotka (57:48.311) And there you will find ways to invite me to your church. I do three-day seminars. In fact, I travel internationally and I give away resources at no charge. I'm going to be going to Nigeria in about three weeks. And I'm going to be giving two of my books away to seminary students who have nothing. And so my ministry, for its charitable purposes, equips the poor and the persecuted church. And people can donate if you want to do that. I have an American thing and a Canadian thing. And I travel to churches and I teach and do local events.


Kristen Wambach (58:00.186) Wow.


Kristen Wambach (58:05.168) Mm-hmm.


David Chotka (58:17.698) But you go to spiritequip dot com and you will find everything that I've written and all the links.
Kristen Wambach (58:23.289) That's wonderful. Thank you. Now, we had talked about this briefly before, because my listeners know that I love the call to action. I love the prayer. I love the tangible where in the spirit you are literally exchanging the culmination of what you've shared with us today. But the interesting thing is I asked Holy Spirit ahead of time, well, what does this look like? Do I And I felt more of like of a prayer, like maybe part of the banks of the river. And I'm sure that you will change it. But this is the scenario that I heard from Holy Spirit. This special request. This morning, Jesus shared with me a profound metaphorical picture. I see a well-seasoned gardener pushing a single-tired wheelbarrow across a field. The load in the wheelbarrow consists of a person who was curled up sleeping or being carried in the hands cart. There are two perspectives of prayer here. I feel our listeners can place themselves. The first one is maybe they are the individual in the wheelbarrow and they need to be carried in this season of life. And the second one. They find themselves as the seasoned gardener doing the pushing and caring in prayer and intercession for loved ones around them.


David Chotka (01:00:02.473) Yes, and what are you asking me?
Kristen Wambach (01:00:05.691) I think that's the the prayer picture, the metaphorical picture. Would you pray for us? Would you release the anointing that's upon your life for hearing God, for for hearing a teacher? Because you you are teaching us, and we need to take what a teacher says and be able to assimilate that into our life.
David Chotka (01:00:31.790) Now listen, the one who's in the wheelbarrow and the one who's pushing the wheelbarrow both need the same thing. Both of them need to be aware what God is saying to them. And if the person in the wheelbarrow is worn out to the place or in grief or just devastated because something in life has caused them to be in that place, they need to know that God has not abandoned them. And if the intercessor who is carrying that person as they're bearing their burden for another is doing this, he's going to grow weary. That person or she, that person needs to know that the Lord has given them a word to carry them for a season, but it's not going to be forever. So here's the prayer I would pray for both people in the wheelbarrow, whether they're the one carrying this thing or whether they're the one being carried. Lord Jesus, the prayer I would pray is that you would impact Heart and awareness of how you speak to both of them. For the one it's Sabbath rest until they're well, for the other it is pace while they do their ministry. I would pray that the one who is receiving the intercession and the one who is carrying the burden would know beyond all knowing that the peace of Jesus is increasing and leading them into fullness of life. Let the peace rule in both sets of hearts. And let them understand together that God has placed them in this circumstance until they know that the assignment is completed in Jesus' name. Amen.
Kristen Wambach (01:02:06.967) Amen. Thank you. I could feel the expanse of peace that you released. I could feel that. And yes, listeners, I always say this. Hang in that pregnant pause. Hang. Pastor Dave went over and over again to share with us about letting it marinate. So allow that to marinate the tangible touch of Jesus encouraging you. Hmm. Pastor David, thank you so much for sharing your your valuable wisdoms with us today. Your unique sense of humor. my goodness.
David Chotka (01:02:58.488) I love to laugh. I laugh when I pray. And every now and then Jesus teases me.
Kristen Wambach (01:02:59.896) that's good. And so does Yes, he does. He does. And we at his kids, we make him laugh. We make him thank you for joining us today and sharing with us just your valuable wisdom. Thank you.


David Chotka (01:03:12.162) Yes.


David Chotka (01:03:19.518) It's been a delight and I hope that your listeners are all blessed as they partake and learn the word and grow.
Kristen Wambach (01:03:26.009) Yes. Amen. 

You create the devotional habit so that you can fill the habit with the glory of God. You gotta have banks for the river to flow, and the banks for the river is the habit of five minutes a day." —Pastor David Chotka

Interactive Watching Prompts for YouTube LIVE
When you join us for the YouTube LIVE broadcast, don't just watch—participate with us in real-time! Grab your coffee, open your heart, and drop your thoughts in the chat as we journey through these moments together: Welcome to "Ask," just right of the share button!

1. The Peace Check (Timestamp ~08:30): Drop in the chat if you’ve ever felt that sudden "drop in peace" or uneasy stomach nudge when driving toward a decision, before you even understood why.
2. The $108 Miracle (Timestamp ~15:30): Type "PRECISE" in the comments if God has ever met a financial need down to the exact penny or specific dollar amount in your own life!
3. The 5-Minute Commitment (Timestamp ~53:00): Tell us in the chat: what specific 5-minute window in your day can you protect as your daily "riverbank" for meeting with Jesus?

The Internal Compass: Righteousness, Peace, and Joy

During our dialogue, Pastor David anchored our focus in Romans 14:17, where the Apostle Paul writes that the Kingdom of God is not about external rules, eating, or drinking, but about righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
David defined these three spiritual markers in a way that makes immediate sense for your daily life:

1. Righteousness isn't about legalistic perfection or maintaining a spotless moral scorecard to earn God's favor. It is simply a sweet, un-distracted walk with Jesus where your focus remains firmly fixed on Him.
   
2. Peace is an internal serenity that functions as your spiritual gauge.
   
3. Joy is not shallow, external happiness that changes with the weather. It is an explosive internal celebration of God’s presence alive inside your spirit, regardless of what your physical circumstances look like.
   

The Peace Referee (Colossians 3:15)

The real "aha" moment of our conversation came when David shared his doctoral research on Colossians 3:15: "Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..."
Digging into BDAG (the gold-standard Greek lexicon), David discovered that the ancient Greek word translated as "rule" (brabeuō) was used specifically to describe referees in athletic matches, arbiters in business disputes, and judges in courtrooms.
When Paul tells us to let peace rule, he is saying: Let the peace of Jesus be the official referee of your soul. When you are considering a business deal, a relationship, or a life pivot, and you feel God's peace wax large inside you, that's the referee calling "fair ball". But when you feel an unexplainable knot in your stomach or a sudden drop in inner peace—like David experienced when driving toward a job that looked good on paper—that is Holy Spirit throwing a loving yellow flag. He is blowing the whistle to protect you from stepping out of bounds.

CONNECT WITH DR. DAVID CHOTKA

SpiritEquip.com Website
FACEBOOK SpiritEquip
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Is God Really Trying to Get Your Attention?
Can you actually manage to “Listen, Test and Know When God Speaks?”
David Chotka’s answer to these questions is an emphatic “Yes!”
If that is true, then:

• What is it like to hear that voice?
• What are the indicators that we are “on track” rather than “in left field”?
• How can we know we are actually hearing God, and not merely our own thinking?

If you need those questions answered then this six-week adventure is for you.

Building the Banks for the River

Toward the end of our episode, I asked David how a busy person—someone juggling kids, contracts, or heavy life pressures—can practically cultivate this awareness without adding another burdensome "todo" list.
His answer was wonderfully simple: Establish the habit, and the habit will hold the glory. You don't need three hours in a monastic quiet room to start hearing God. Start with just five minutes a day at the exact same time. Think of those five minutes as constructing the dirt banks along a riverbed. The banks aren't the water itself, but without them, the living water spills everywhere and gets lost in the mud. When you build those consistent five-minute banks, the river of Holy Spirit has a clear structure to flow through your life.
Stop striving to perform for a God who already loves you unconditionally. Listen for the referee’s whistle, guard your peace, build your five-minute riverbanks, and live Spiritually BRAVE!

---

Coaching Church Activation: The 60-Second Peace Referee Alignment

Take 60 seconds right now—wherever you are sitting, walking, or driving—to run this simple activation in your spirit:

1. Pause & Breathe: Close your eyes (if safe to do so) and take a deep breath. Quiet the noise of your pending to-do list and bring your mind into full awareness of Jesus’ loving, un-distracted presence right beside you.
   
2. Bring the Decision to the Bench: Think of one specific decision, conversation, or situation currently causing you internal friction or second-guessing.
   
3. Consult the Referee: Hold that situation before Jesus and ask: “Lord, where is Your peace in this?”
   
   • Notice your spirit: Is His peace expanding and waxing large like a green light?
     
   • Or do you feel an internal knot, a drop in peace, or an uneasy yellow flag?
     
4. Release & Rest: If peace is present, step forward boldly. If peace is absent or diminished, pause, yield, and wait until His clarity returns. Declare out loud: “I let the peace of Christ rule as the referee in my heart today!”
   

MEET THE AUTHOR & PODCASTER

Hey there! I’m Kristen Wambach—author, speaker, seasoned podcast host, and founder of the Interviewing Jesus Podcast. For years, my life’s passion has been helping believers step out of stale, exhausting religious performance and step directly into intimate, conversational Oneness with Jesus. Through my books, interactive prayer journals, and deep-dive podcast conversations with world-class scholars, leaders, and practitioners like Dr. David Chotka, I focus on turning complex theology into simple, Monday-morning lifestyle tools.

Whether I’m sharing personal stories from my own journey—like the time God sent an exact $800 check through an unexpected farm debris pile—or guiding listeners through real-time spiritual activations, my mission remains the same: to equip you with the courage, discernment, and clarity to live Spiritually BRAVE every single day!

Keynote Speaker & Podcast Guest Availability

Looking for a Keynote Speaker or Workshop Leader on Hearing God’s Voice, Spiritual Discernment, and Kingdom Identity?
Kristen Wambach is an experienced international speaker, author, and host of the top-ranked Interviewing Jesus Podcast. Renowned for her warm, highly engaging, and authentic delivery style, Kristen specializes in keynote presentations, retreat workshops, and conference sessions focused on:

• Practical Spiritual Discernment: Sifting internal noise to clearly perceive the voice of Jesus in daily life.
• Moving from Religious Striving to Identity: Unlocking effortless Oneness with God without performance anxiety.
• Simplifying the Supernatural: Transforming biblical truths into actionable, everyday lifestyle activations.

Booking Inquiries: To invite Kristen Wambach to speak at your upcoming Christian conference, leadership retreat, church event, or to guest on your podcast, visit Her Speaking Page or reach out directly via the media booking form at InterviewingJesus.com. or Podmatch

Final Summary & Call to Action

My friends, hearing the voice of Jesus isn't a secret code reserved for a select few—it is your birthright as a child of God. As Pastor David so beautifully reminded us, if God can use horse sense and even speak through Balaam’s donkey, He can certainly communicate with your heart right in the middle of your week!
Take time today to guard your internal peace. Pay attention to those gentle interior nudges, build your 5-minute daily riverbanks, and step forward with confidence.
Your Next Steps:

1. Listen & Share: Subscribe to the Interviewing Jesus Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube, and send this episode to a friend who needs a boost in their prayer life today!
   
2. Grab the Book: Check the show notes to grab Dr. David Chotka’s #1 best-selling book, Hey, Are You There? It's Me–God!, and explore his equipping resources at SpiritEquip.com.
   
3. Stay Connected: to grab my latest prayer journals, books, and devotional tools to help you stay Spiritually BRAVE!