Beatitudes & Mercy Triumphant: How Timeless Plays Set You Free! with Carol Brenner ❖ 305

Shakespeare isn't just a dusty textbook on a shelf; he is holding up an unvarnished mirror to the human heart. When you place his characters right next to the Sermon on the Mount, you realize they are mapping out the exact same journey: what happens when we choose our own ambition, versus when we surrender to the unstrained mercy of God."
— Carol Brenner

Do you ever feel like you are constantly performing just to keep up, or trapped behind closed doors with no clear way forward? In this episode of the Interviewing Jesus Podcast, host Kristen Wambach sits down with Carol Brenner to explore how timeless plays and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount intersect to offer a safer, freer path. Discover how dropping the heavy armor of self-reliance and stepping into unstrained mercy changes everything.

What You Will Discover

• How classic stories and Shakespeare's characters act as unvarnished mirrors for human pride, ambition, and grace.
• The life-changing truth that mercy is not forced—it drops like gentle rain and is twice blessed.
• Practical spiritual keys for moving past emotional burnout and finding true freedom in everyday life.

Episode Takeaways

• The Monday-Morning Anchor: Stop sitting in judgment of closed doors; use your God-given imagination to carve a brand new path forward.
• The Kingdom Reality: Mercy triumphs over judgment every single day when we choose to release our demand for retaliation.
  
• The Practical Path: Lay down the heavy armor of performance and step into the light of authentic spiritual freedom.

WHAT'S INSIDE THIS WEEK'S BLOG POST: 

• The Mirror of the Stage: Discover why classic stories and timeless plays act as an unvarnished reflection of the human heart, mapping out the exact same journey found in the Sermon on the Mount.
• The Power of Unstrained Mercy: Unpack the deep spiritual truth that mercy is never forced—it falls like gentle rain and carries a double blessing for both giver and receiver.
• Dropping the Armor: Learn how to step away from constant performance and emotional burnout by choosing grace over self-reliance.
• The Monday-Morning Anchor: Practical keys to stop staring at closed doors, use your God-given imagination, and walk out a path of true freedom this week.
• Coaching Church Activations: Step into guided reflections and practical exercises designed to help you release rigid expectations and live out these truths in your daily life.
• Guest Connection: Connect directly with our special guest, Carol Brenner, to explore her work, teachings, and insights further.
  
• Hey There, About the Author: Connect with host and transformation guide Kristen Wambach as she shares her heart for bridging heaven and earth and living with fearless purpose.
• Current Offers & Ways to Connect: Explore our latest book releases, the Coaching Church HUB Concierge, and exclusive resources designed to support your spiritual growth.

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Kristen Wambach (00:01.48)
Welcome back to Interviewing Jesus Podcast. Joining us today is Carol Brenner. Carol is a speaker, a wisdom seeker, and a brilliant mind behind a Shakespeare guru platform. she just carries such a buzz of joy, you're gonna love her. In her 30s, during a season of searching, Carol had an experience that completely redirected her life. It convinced her.

That Shakespeare's characters weren't meant for academic ivory towers. I'm gonna say that again. Academic ivory towers. No, that they are living archetypes and psychol psychological maps for how we think, how we love, how we lead, and how we live. Carol has mapped out a totally joy-field and fascinating side-by-side study titled

Carol Brenner (00:39.191)
Yeah.

Kristen Wambach (01:00.972)
The 10 Shakespearean lessons from the Sermon on the Mount, proving that you don't need an English degree, which I do not have, to decode the deep transformational wisdom running through these timeless stories. Carol, welcome to the show. We are so thrilled to have you here, Pull up a chair today. Listeners, thank you for being with us.

Carol Brenner (01:10.989)
Yeah.

Carol Brenner (01:27.415)
And thank you for inviting me, Kristen.

Kristen Wambach (01:29.894)
absolutely, absolutely. This is going to be so good. And I I ask you, Carol, I need to be educated too. So please, you know, don't hesitate to, if I pronounce something incorrectly, I had to practice a couple words. But we our ears are on, our hearts are going to be expanded, and we just welcome you to teach us and inform us.

You put together a fascinating breakdown called The Ten Shakespearean Lessons from the Sermon on the Mount. You argue that while Jesus gives us a spiritual map of human transformation, Shakespeare gives us a dramatic case studies of what happens when the human beings either follow or violate these principles.

When did you first put on your detective hat and realize that Jesus' most famous sermon was hiding in plain sight across Shakespeare's stage?

Carol Brenner (02:41.219)
Well, I think the truth is is that this marrying of the timeless teachings of Jesus with the timeless teachings of Shakespeare has been a part of my my life, it seems like forever. there's you know, there's a spirit of course that that we feel in the words of Jesus, in the parables and so forth. And and at the same in the same way.

The Shakespeare plays have that spirit. And I heard once a Shakespeare scholar said that it's almost as if Shakespeare knew people would fall away from the Bible in the future. And that the Shakespeare plays.

were like the parables from the Bible. They were like the the parables for the new age. And you can look at them that way. I mean we know that, you know, you know, our young people, I don't know what your experience is, but you know, it's it my experience is that young people are not that interested in organized religion. You know, they're as suspicious of it.

Kristen Wambach (03:35.395)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (03:52.995)
And where you you but they relate to stories. Everyone can relate to stories. And that's and that's the beauty, right, of the parables from the Bible by Jesus. And so yeah, we can talk about these stories. We could start talking right now about the theme of humility versus pride. And that's a theme that Jesus talks about frequently.

And his counsel is always, you know, to not allow, not allow that ego, that pride. And I also call it, you know, the shadow. It's like the dark side coming out. And it might just be something very what you think is very non non-threatening or not that big of a deal. It could be like a little white lie. But those things can turn into a bigger problem. And

In the play King Lear, which is one of Shakespeare's tragedies, we have this aging king and he's ready to retire and he decides that he's going to divide his kingdom up among his three daughters.

Kristen Wambach (04:51.223)
Okay.

Carol Brenner (05:05.653)
Now he wants to find out which daughter loves him the most. So he, you know, he has all his whole court there and his daughters and he's like, he he asks these the first two older daughters, you know, and then, I love you more than I more love you more than time can tell. I love you more than the world and da-da-da-da-da.

You know, and they go on and on and on and flatter him. And he goes, Okay, you get this big portion and you get that big portion. And then he comes to Cordelia, who's the younger daughter. Then he says, Well, Cordelia, you know, how how much do you love me? And she's very simply, very humbly says, I love you as my father, no more, no less as my father. And you know, as a d the love that is due a father, the respect and so forth.

Well, he goes into a rage and he's he goes, you know, get thee gone, never want to see you again. You're exiled. I re- I re you know, take away your dowry. She was about ready to get married. there were three suitors there, sends her away, only one I think it was the king of France. you know, he w Nobody else wanted her, but he said, I'll take you, you know. So this is and then this is begins the downfall of King Lear because he

Found out that those two daughters that said they loved him so much did not really they they couldn't, you know, he would come and live with them. He goes, Okay, I I gave you everything, now I'm gonna come live with you. And he would they would like to kick him out. We don't want you here, we don't want you here with all your knights and soldiers. So he goes, you know, it's a it's a period of time, but he falls into madness. And he realizes in the end that the only family member that really

truly loved him was Cordelia and they do have a reconciliation but in you know it's too it's really too late because you know by this time the kingdom has been taken over by the daughters and their you know you know the the the those that were supporting them and

Carol Brenner (07:20.908)
You know, the daughter the daughter is killed by the older daughters. Anyway, so what you learn is is that, you know, he was he was full of pride. He was like, you know, I'm the king, I'm great. you should, you know, love me in the way I want you to love me, right? And he didn't he didn't see the he also banished his very loyal servant Kent. And

while Kent was banished, he didn't leave. He actually changed his identity into a very lowly

sort of a a a lowly simple servant, but he kept he kept close to g to Lear so he could serve him, but Lear never knew it was him, what knew it was Kent. So those are the kind of people like Cordelia and Kent that he had around him, but he didn't realize their loyalty until after he suffered. So he had to go through this suffering. And you see this again and again in the plays that these wonderful characters, and whether it's a tragedy or comedy,

Like even Macbeth, you know, it Macbeth is a terrible tragedy. I don't know if you any know anything about that play, but you know he was he was overtaken by ambition. And so but at the end of the play, despite his loss, there's a realization.

And that is such a gift and a key to a lot of the stories in the plays is that yes, okay, there's failure here, you made the wrong decision, you made the wrong choice, but look what you've learned. And there's an acknowledgement and a sense of, you know, next time I I can do better, right? If there isn't next time. And so there's hope. Yeah.

Kristen Wambach (09:18.478)
I'm gonna ask you a favor. Would you take your pretty earrings out?

Carol Brenner (09:26.342)
am I making noise?

Kristen Wambach (09:27.906)
They do make a a bit of noise and thank God that we can just edit these little things, you know. Well be be because you are charismatic and because you're moving and you're right there. So I just thought I'm going to ask her. You're very welcome. Yay.

Carol Brenner (09:40.296)
Yes. Thank you. Okay, perfect. All right. Okay, so do you want me to repeat anything?

Kristen Wambach (09:49.739)
No, no. I'm gonna say so Carol listeners Carol is charismatic and theatrical. And I'm watching her. I get the privilege of actually seeing her tell these stories. So I want to

Let each one of you know that there is a YouTube live so you can be blessed by this lovely shining face telling these stories. So I know a lot of people are driving in their cars, but this is one of those episodes that I encourage you to grab a glass of wine, a cup of coffee, and just relax and be blessed by her effervescence. Amen. Now, Carol, I

Carol Brenner (10:36.938)
Amen.

Kristen Wambach (10:38.954)
I'd like you to continue to expand and educate us through your story. So the Sermon on the Mountain, Jesus repeatedly shifts our focus away from performance, kind of like King Larry. He was performing, doing his, he got too kingly that he stopped being a father. So away from religious performance to what actually is happening in the secret chamber of

Of the heart. And with these plays, when we when we go out and we see we enjoy theater and music concerts, all it does is it opens up our minds to actually allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us from a different perspective. You point out that Shakespeare does the exact same thing through a soliloquy. I had to look that word up. It is a story.

Carol Brenner (11:33.095)
Ha ha ha.

Kristen Wambach (11:35.503)
By different characters. Taking us straight into the minds of the characters of Macbeth, which what you had mentioned before the crime even happened, in a world obsessed with public perception. my goodness. What does Shakespeare teach us about the core of Jesus' questions? Who are you when nobody is watching?

Carol Brenner (12:03.394)
Excellent, excellent question, yes. All right. Macbeth

And I just, you know, was put out a post on my my Facebook page, Shakespeare Guru, because I love psychology. And so I love posting, you know, quotes that will make will that will get people thinking about their their psychology or the psychology of others they they see acting in the world. And the quote was

Kristen Wambach (12:21.187)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (12:36.413)
the quote that quote had to do with power of the dark side. The power of the dark side. Because we know that in Macbeth, that the witches, these these three witches, prophesies that he'll be king.

He's already had a victory, he's coming back from a battle, he's been made Fein of Cawdor. and the play takes place in Scotland. and he's these witches, you know, are he meets up with these witches. So he's thinking about this, and he gets home and he tells his wife, Lady Macbeth.

Well, she just goes, you know, off on this like tangent. It's like, you're gonna be king. Well, we can make this happen. You know, we we don't have to wait. Let's make it happen. And King Duncan is coming with his

his court to stay at their home that night. And so she knows this and she says, you know, she begins to to plan and strategize. We'll kill him while he's sleeping in his bed. So yeah, so what I am teaching or want people to understand, you know, if you know anything about Yumian psychology, which you you know, you have the anima and the animus. Okay, so I believe the soul is a

Is feminine, but we all have an anima which is the is more the more feminine part of ourself or our you know our soul or ego. I mean the soul and the ego are are definitely different, they're not the same, but so the you've got the animal which is anima which is feminine, the animus which is masculine, and Carl Jung has spoken about this that a

Carol Brenner (14:32.077)
Woman is made up of like maybe 60% feminine and 40% masculine, and a man is the opposite, 60% masculine. And the men and women, you know, we we we manifest more of the masculine or the feminine, just depending on you know our temperament and what we're here to learn, you know, our identity. We're all so unique. So

In the play Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, she just kills her anima. She kills her own light, she kills her soul, she's like represses it. So there's no feeling of remorse, no feeling of compassion or empathy. And you know, she even she talks about

you know, i if she had a th this is intense, but she talks about and this is what Shakespeare does. He makes the images with words so visceral you can't help but go like

you know, really y it makes it come so alive. But she talks about if she had a baby at her breast, you know, feeding the baby, she would just dash the baby against a wall, you know, and and smash the brains out. You know, now that that is for a woman to say that, but she's trying to show her husband, you know, she's trying to say, be a man, you know, look at me. I can do this, be a man. But she is totally killing her femininity.

Kristen Wambach (15:47.308)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (16:05.46)
So, you know, she and so she's inviting the darkness, which is why I say the power of the dark side. Because the dark side, the darkness does give us power, right? We know that. That's why people go down that road. That's why you've got these, you know, black magicians and witches and so forth. There is a certain power. We know that the devil, you know, has power. but that power comes from the darkness, not from the light. And we know that God is more powerful.

But you know, sometimes people have to go through these lessons to learn, right? They have to experiment. So, what happens to Macbeth? He, you know, he's doesn't he's not really wanting to go along with her. He's like having he has a conscience and he he recognizes that this is not the right thing to do, and I don't really want to do this. Duncan has been really King Duncan has been very generous with me recently and giving me this this he's

Promoted me. So but she is so intense, she overpowers him. The anima and in the sorry her animus overpowers his anima because he had this feeling of you know empathy and and kindness, you know. So now he's totally okay, I'm gonna do it, you know. and

So you you and then after this all happens and the Duncan is murdered and then he has to work so hard to cover it and to keep the facade that everything is fine, you know. people s of course are suspicious of him, but see this separation from the anima and the animus, the separation from the soul, right, because the the soul knows what's correct.

But that repressing the killing of the own soul that makes his wife go insane. And yet, and he knows, he understands what he did was wrong, and he understands why he's reaping the results of that bad action. you know, by the end he recognizes that and he gets what he deserves, right? You know, he's killed and then the kingdom goes back to where it should.

Kristen Wambach (18:24.918)
I thank you for sharing that that portion of the story. I'm going to pop in a little bit of life application spiritually that I glean and I hear through your story. So the redemptive gifts, the seven redemptive gifts that are talked about in Romans 12, there are male and female entities of each one of the redempted gifts. I will put it into my camp. So

My strongest redemptive gift is the prophet redemptive gift, which is a male redemptive gift. So you take a male, like you were talking in psychology, the male gifting in there and you put it in a female. Well, there were so many a period of time where I wasn't received in in church.

surroundings because all they perceived was a male dominant gift, and without the education and the knowledge to realize that's a gift from God, it is not a female being rebellious or Jezebel. And so I wanted to put that into spiritual language, what you were describing so well.

Through what Shakespeare stories it. How many times do we try do we try to divorce the gifts of God that he placed in our life because it looks male or female instead of realizing that God has created us this well way? So I just want to jump in and put in my own testimony with what you were saying.

Carol Brenner (20:13.664)
Absolutely. That is that's beautiful. I'm so glad you did. there's a you know something you know I've studied all the major religions, and in Taoism, there's something called the Tai Chi. You've probably seen that symbol. And it's you know, it's like life is constantly striving towards balance.

Kristen Wambach (20:25.592)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (20:34.602)
the harmony, right? So goes too much this way, then it's got you it's gotta go a little more that way, right? And and you know, and and being a prophet, and and prophesying, and that role is perfect for a woman, you know, and so it's just when

I I want to emphasize that Lady Macbeth, she let ambition, ruthless ambition, rule her life. You can approach your passion, your career, your work, your your what you're meant to, what you were put on earth to do as a gift, to give to all, you know, from a balanced perspective, not ruthless ambition, but more in service, in service is what I think you are doing.

Kristen Wambach (21:28.35)
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm I'm going to reclassify it. It is the the prophet is redemptive gift, not the ministry gift prophet. So there's there's two different ones. So redemptive gift is always bringing forth the redemption and transformation first for yourself and for those people that you have influence with. And

I will also piggyback on what you said is that now now who was the the female character that got out of control? What was her name? Lady Macbeth. So I can tell you from experience that at one point in time my redemptive gift or the knowledge of it was immature. So it wasn't stewarded properly until

Carol Brenner (22:02.976)
Lady Macbeth?

Kristen Wambach (22:20.392)
I spent some serious time with Jesus and also around mentors in my life so it could be developed. So there's again, there is a balance in developing the gifts that God has placed on our lives.

Carol Brenner (22:37.674)
Yes, and I would love to share with you a female character from the Shakespeare plays where that happens in a very interesting way. So her name is Rosalind, and the play is as you like it, and this is a comedy, so we'll lighten things up a little bit.

Kristen Wambach (22:47.786)
yes.

Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (22:57.726)
Now, Rosalind, she is the daughter of a duke, and this the the play takes place in southern France, sort of an imaginary place, but it seems to be, you know, there's in in France. And Rosalind's father has been exiled by her uncle. So her father was

usurped, his dukedom was usurped, stolen by his own brother, and he exiled him to the forest of Arden. Now Rosalind was able to stay in the court because she's very close to her cousin's Celia. And

So her uncle, you know, allows this to go on for a little while, but then he noticed that the people are sort of jealous. They're, they're, they're, they're not jealous, but you know, they're they pity Rosalind. And he doesn't like that. The uncle doesn't like that because, you know, they're starting to favor Rosalind and feel sorry for her. So he says, he comes to her one night and he says,

get the gone, niece. You know, and if you're not out of here in twenty four hours, it's death. So here she is, you know, and I and and I talk about this sometimes like in a moder modern day. Like maybe you've been like just fired from your job, right?

Kristen Wambach (24:24.31)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (24:25.045)
24 hours, get the heck out of here, clean out your desk, da-da-da, right? Or your spouse says, hey, I want a divorce. Right? So or you have a you find out, you know, you've got this terminal illness. So these things happen, right? So this is what happens to Rosalind. And you know, she's taken aback, but she she doesn't complain, she doesn't try to negotiate, she doesn't say, you know, I'm a victim, da-da-da, will somebody come rescue me.

Kristen Wambach (24:27.691)
yeah.

Carol Brenner (24:54.271)
But she she reinvents herself and she uses her imagination to reinvent herself. And she says to her cousins, Celia, why don't I dress up like a man? And you can dress up as be my sister, and we'll take the fool and we'll we'll leave the court and we'll go to the forest. And that is where her father is, the Duke with with his men.

Kristen Wambach (25:10.04)
Uh-huh.

Carol Brenner (25:24.115)
So off they go to the forest, and it just so happens that be right before she left the court, she met the love of her life, Orlando. And it was just a very brief meeting, but you know how their eyes met, and it was love at first sight. And so, but interestingly enough, Orlando has now been banished by his brother.

Kristen Wambach (25:41.611)
Uh-huh.

Carol Brenner (25:49.956)
Oliver, and because Oliver is jealous of Orlando and he wants to keep all the inheritance that their father left him for himself. So Orlando's been sent to the forest. Rosalind goes off to the forest, and as a boy, right? She's dressed as a young boy, a page, and lo and behold, she finds

These beautiful well not so beautiful actually, these poems that Orlando has written pinned on trees all over the forest. And she reads them out loud and it's terrible poetry. And but but he's professing his love for her, for Rosalind, right? So she goes, this is funny, Orlando's in the in the forest. You know, so then she sees Orlando and she's she decides, okay, I'm I'm dressed as a boy.

Kristen Wambach (26:20.801)
Carol Brenner (26:42.547)
And at first she's embarrassed, right? You know, what am I gonna do? Look at me, I'm I'm in these doublet and hoes.

But she decides she's gonna talk to him. So she goes up and she starts talking to him. And she goes, Are you the one that's you know marring these trees with this terrible poetry? So she starts kind of, you know, interacting, teasing, kind of flirting with him. He doesn't know it's her. He thinks she's a boy. And what she does is she actually convinces him to start to woo her as if she is Rosalind, when she is Rosalind, and that she'll cure him of being loves.

Kristen Wambach (26:58.99)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (27:18.957)
So this is how she finds out, does he really love her?

You know, she's probing his heart. You know, are you gonna keep coming to my little cottage and and wooing me, you know, as if I'm Rosalind? Or are you gonna, you know, give up on this whole thing? So things evolve and she she understands that yep, he really loves her. And then other things happen during the play, but at the end everyone everyone gets married. You know, sh and so Celia ends up marrying Oliver, who was the one the brother of Orlando. Anyway, so it's Kai's

the the comedies often end in marriage because it's the perfect renewal. It's renewal, it's harmony, it's union and it's renewal. So I'm mentioning that because you know

Here you have a woman who had to, you know, she felt compelled to dress as a man to protect herself because at that time a beautiful woman, you know, in in going, you know, traveling alone, you know, she's a temptation for thieves and so forth. And so that was protection. And then it allowed her to take on a different persona, right? And to act as if.

Which is always a good thing to do when you want when you have to kinda like change your circumstances and and you know, shift your identity, shift your paradigm.

Kristen Wambach (28:44.846)
I love that. Hearing you tell the story reminds me that I have a feeling the people who wrote the the movie Yentel with Barbara Streisand, remember she had to she she dressed up as a boy so that she could study the Torah. I think that they got some of their idea from Shakespeare.

Carol Brenner (29:09.2)
Yeah.

Kristen Wambach (29:11.919)
Yeah, yeah. It just sounds like a this sounds like the same story.

Carol Brenner (29:16.891)
Yes. And sometimes these women would dress up as men to follow their husbands into war. So they could they could accompany them and be a soldier in war. Yeah. And I think that that really happened. I don't think it's just it's just from the plays.

Kristen Wambach (29:23.074)
Mm-hmm.

Kristen Wambach (29:32.589)
Yeah, yes, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'd I'd say so. I don't have a historic fact that's jumping out of my brain. But if we were to look at this from the the the places of the heart, how many times do we as followers of Jesus Christ, how many times do we either alter who we are or allow a circumstance to alter

Our original identity. Now she did it for protection. She did it. And then from that place of protection, she actually figured out that the person who was saying that he loved her actually loved her. But it allowed her to get a different perspective. So when Jesus is working on our heart, how does he allow us to get a different perspective?

Carol Brenner (30:33.552)
I think I think sometimes it's through hardship, don't you?

Kristen Wambach (30:39.232)
At times, yes.

Carol Brenner (30:40.904)
Because I think that the refiner's fire, right? That that molds the gem, the diamond of the heart. It helps us, it helps us dis dispense of all the dross, you know, what we what we think we should be, maybe even sympathy, right? And get down to to deeper compassion for our own souls and the souls of others.

Kristen Wambach (30:46.158)
Mm-hmm.

Kristen Wambach (31:07.498)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Have you I when I hear you describe these characters, because I know that the power of words and then when we sit in a a

theater environment, we can actually place ourselves into the character in our own behavior. How have you noticed that changing your own life by watching these characters display the all those feelings and the emotions and the attitudes?

Carol Brenner (31:41.086)
Well, Rosalind, I have to say, is my favorite heroine in the play. She's my favorite female character. I really identify with her. and you know, mm anyone out there, especially women, you know, who are going through a transition and are scared to death, right? Because we've all been there. It's like, you know, making these big changes in our lives. but I think that

You know, I I was just listening to Tony Roberts and he goes like, you know, you know, and there's a book written by i with this title, you know, feel the fear and do it anyway, right? Feel the fear and do it anyway. But somet you know, it's like sh she used her imagination. and it probably seemed sort of outlandish, right? at the at the time, but it's it's what needed to happen. And I think if we can you know, step back from

Kristen Wambach (32:18.178)
Yes.

Carol Brenner (32:38.376)
Whatever that big bugaboo is, you know, that big thing, the big fear in the room, you know, and do something a little different, you know, get a different perspective and then take that little step in a new direction. but I want to go back to what you were saying about the heart. And

I'm gonna bring something up that we we didn't really plan on, but I'm gonna I want to bring it up. So I've done a lot of research on the authorship controversy about who wrote the Shakespeare plays. And I, you know, I have a I have a very specific point of view on that. And I know that the author, when he was very young, 15 years old,

he fell in love with this French princess. And these plays like Romeo and Juliet, As You Like It, Twelfth Night, even Trellis and Cressida, you know, they're about his love.

two gentlemen of Verona. You know, they're there. So you see these women in these plays. These women are multi-dimensional. And it's very unusual at that time in Elizabethan England because remember that on the stage, men played the women's roles. Women were not allowed to act, so you had the men playing. But the women in these plays, you know, he gave them, the author gave them so much freedom to.

Kristen Wambach (34:04.734)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (34:15.71)
To be, you know, and they w even though even though you have like characters like Ophelia and Hamlet, who was very constrained by her parents and her father actually, Polonius, and her brother Laeretes, very constrained. She w was living in the court, you know, she there they said, Don't marry Hamlet, he's a star out of your realm. but then he gives us these other characters like Rosalind or Viola or Portia.

You know, and that's another topic I'd love to talk a little bit about is Portia in the Merchant of Venice. She has a wonderful speech. The quality of mercy is not strained. It falleth as the gentle rain from heaven heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed. It blesses him that gives and him that takes. And this is, you know, this play that is somewhat controversial now because you've got the Jew, Shylock, you know, who wants his pound of flesh.

You've probably heard that term, right? You know, give me my you know, he wants his pound of flesh. He wants the full revenge. And so Shylock wanted his pound of flesh from Antonio, who

Kristen Wambach (35:14.146)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (35:26.394)
owed him money and Antonio didn't have the money right then. And so Shylock took him to court. I want my pound of flesh. Well he wa you know, this was a whole thing but between the Christians and the Jews and there was a lot of resentment there. And Portia comes in, and Portia again, she's a beautiful woman. She's an she's she's not a princess, but she's she's a you know, of of royalty, the higher, you know, higher rank higher class, I guess. And

She dresses up like a clerk, a law clerk, so she dresses up like a boy and comes and defends Antonio in this courtroom to save his life. And that's when she gives this this speech, you know, the quality of mercy is not strained. And we see Jesus always going towards mercy. It's always, you know.

I mean, and you can help me with this 'cause I think you know better, but it's like, you know, turning the other cheek and forgiving and showing mercy and compassion to the person who harmed you or the beggar on the street, right? And I go ahead.

Kristen Wambach (36:37.102)
Carol, would you, would you, because I I think there's more in the words. And would you repeat a little bit slower and more articulate? Because we're gonna really listen to you say Portia's her her quote on mercy. Would because there's just more in there for us. Would you say it again, please?

Carol Brenner (36:56.816)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The quality of mercy is not strained. It falleth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed. It blesses him that gives and him that takes. Tis mightiest than the mightiest.

That's about all I remember right now.

Kristen Wambach (37:28.428)
Yeah, I I d I I just when you were saying that I feel that the shift and the tender touch of Holy Spirit on on that. It it mercy is not strained.

And and I heard you say that. So for me, a visual on mercy not strained is meaning there aren't any walls or things that can get in the way of mercy actually be doing what it's meant to do. And you said twice blessed.

On the coming in and on the going out. So it I just felt like there's people listening, myself included, where mercy's not strained. It's not being withheld. And and here Shakespeare has just shared that through the character of Portia.

Carol Brenner (38:28.147)
Yes. And you know, I think about mercy like a stream or a creek, you know, rushing around and it's it wears away a stone, you know, that water. It's like the water that keeps beating against a stone and it'll it'll wear it down eventually. It's so gentle, you know, it falleth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath.

And when you show mercy to someone, it blesses not only the person you're showing mercy to, but also blesses yourself, which is really amazing.

Kristen Wambach (39:13.206)
That's the twice blessed. Twice blessed. So Carol, can you share with us why is Rosalind your favorite? Where how did she move into your heart that she be that she became your favorite? How how did she strengthen you in a time where you needed strength?

Carol Brenner (39:39.369)
Yeah, good question. One of the reasons is she's playful.

She doesn't take herself too seriously. She doesn't take her circumstances too seriously. And I've, you know, it's like I've had periods where, you know, the hardships have have come, and it's like, you know, there's a you can, you know, get too serious about your problems. Right? And so going to Rosalind and how she

She was curious about everyone. That's one of the things I love about her. Curious about everybody. So she wouldn't judge, she wouldn't criticize, she wouldn't even, you know, judge her, judge her circumstance. And by this curiosity and finding out about other people in the forest, she helped these people discover.

their themselves, discover their true selves, and discover what it is they really want that would make them happy. And so it it it's interesting because she she that's why so many of these couples that she met in the forest ended up getting married. There were like four or five couples that got married at the end. So you know she's almost like a magician of the best kind.

And like she's somebody I would really like to know.

Kristen Wambach (41:10.61)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah. She sounds strong in that she has the she's comfortable with herself thinking outside the box.

Carol Brenner (41:22.511)
Yes. And I think that's what the world is requiring these days is you know, the problems that seem so insurmountable and you know, the divide and conquer that goes on. You know, I'm sure you you feel this too, but God has a solution. God has a solution to every single human problem. And it's just we just need to get out of our own way and and get out of the way and allow that.

that solution to descend.

Kristen Wambach (41:56.129)
I get caught in in the word phrases that I hear, and that's when I feel the Holy Spirit on them. Just like the the this that mercy wasn't strained. The other words that you said here, that she didn't judge her circumstances. And I I felt Holy Spirit on that, and I went, so some of the circumstances in my life.

I have sat as a judge, meaning you're hard, you're this, I don't like the way you make me feel.

And so I I heard the wisdom in that when we move away from the circumstance and we don't put our opinions on it like Rosalind, then it allows us, first of all, to forgive ourselves.

Sometimes even forgiving God. I do that all the time. I forgive God all the time. And you know what? He is totally big enough to be able to know why I need to forgive him. It's for times that I don't understand.

And so listeners, I'm just encouraging to hear Carol's story about Rosalind and the words that she's using. And if Holy Spirit's touching your heart and you feel like you might have judged a circumstance, can you step back? Can you tell us, Carol, a little bit more? How did Rosalind deal with it when she stepped back from that judgment? What was opened up to her?

Carol Brenner (43:41.769)
Well when she went to the forest, you know, she she met up with all these different people. She met up with well she took the fool for one thing.

And she met up with Jay Quees, who was Jay Quees was very melancholy. He and he was part of the the Duke's, you know, court, because the Duke took some men with him. And she met up with Jay Quees, and he was very melancholy, and he was ki you know, always, you know, reciting kind of very sad poetry in the forest. She met up with the fool found Audrey, the the milkmaid.

And she was, you know, just a kind of very country, you know, rustic country girl. And okay, who else was it? Okay, and then there was two a shepherd and a shepherdess named Sylvius and Phoebe, and they were, he was madly in love with Phoebe, and

Phoebe spurned him. She was very she was very arrogant and prideful, you know, and she spurned him, you know. but he was so in love with her. And so Rosalind and your curiosity about all these different people

Just by asking them questions and sort of giving her perspective, allowed them to make a shift in their awareness and consciousness. So, for example, she got Phoebe to actually love Sylvius, and they ended up getting married, and the fool ended up marrying Audrey, the milkmaid. And

Carol Brenner (45:23.246)
Right, and I already told you a little bit about the transformation that happened in Orlando, right? Because he was, you know, wooing wooing Rosalind, who, you know, he thought was Ganymede, that was her male name. So I I think I I hope I'm answering your question. but you know, it was like she because she made this shift in her identity and she went to the forest and she she met up with these people, she was seeing life.

First of all, she was out of the court, right? She was seeing all this rustic life which she'd never seen before. And the beauty of being in nature. See, and this is another thing, is like going back into the natural world where nature, nature just is, you know, and it has the flow, the yin and the yang, like we were talking before, the seasons.

And nature naturally replenishes and renews. And where the court, you know, the thing you know, the court had these rules and you had to wear certain clothes and speak a certain way. So and I think that's the other thing that really attracts me about Rosalind is that it's there's no, you know, there's no real rules there in that forest.

And and sh one of the things that she did that I love is that she was building teams. Everything she did was building teams. She was building community.

And she created this beautiful little community. And in the end, just want people to know this. Like when she she married Orlando, the fool married Audrey, Sylvia S and Phoebe married Cecilia ended marrying Oliver, who's Orlando's brother. And then the Duke, her father, could recognize her because he was there too with his men. And so now he's e you know, but she did not show her identity to her father.

Carol Brenner (47:20.794)
until you know she took off her her men's weeds as she would call them and you know and then was being married because sh again it was like this was a maturation process, spiritual maturity, right? She didn't want to go back to the father. She wanted to like become in a sense her own, you know, perfect Alpha and Omega, the balance of the male, female and herself.

Kristen Wambach (47:46.777)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I love it. I love it. That is so that's so neat.

Where would be a good place for a person to start with Shakespeare? Where where's a good place for us to sit down, get away from the noise and the bustle and the same old, same old, the same old voices? Sometimes it's just the same voices that are are going around us. Where's a good place for us to start?

Carol Brenner (48:23.784)
Yes. Alright, depending on where your listeners, you know, because I'm sure there's many different and abilities in your in your audience, right? Some people may be familiar familiar with Shakespeare and some people may not be familiar at all. So

Kristen Wambach (48:38.145)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (48:46.328)
However, whatever level you are at in terms of your understanding, I like always going back to

Kristen Wambach (48:48.747)
Yeah, definitely.

Carol Brenner (48:54.84)
these two books that are the stories of the plays. And the books were written for children. However, they are absolutely fantastic for adults too, because if you read the story of the play, then you've got the k names of the characters and their roles and the plot in your mind, right? So I I think it's a great way to to to start. In fact if I there's a play that I've not read or I don't know so well because I have not read all of them, I'll go to the story to learn.

So these are two books. One is called and they're free and they're online because they're they're out of print. So one is called Tales from Shakespeare by Charles and Mary Lamb.

Kristen Wambach (49:41.731)
Okay, Shakespeare, Charles. All right.

Carol Brenner (49:46.128)
And I can also send you, you know, send you the info on these.

Kristen Wambach (49:47.81)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I can I can put those links so people can find them, yes.

Carol Brenner (49:52.516)
Yeah, yeah. The other one too, I'll just tell you, is is Beautiful Stories from Shakespeare by Nesb, N E S B I T. And if you go online, I'll send you links to the books, but if you go online, they're right there because Google Books, right, you know, you can just there download Okay, so that's a really good place to start. The other play, the the play that is my favorite play. Rosalind, you know, the as you like it is my favorite comedy, but my favorite play that is just

Kristen Wambach (50:07.086)
Mm-hmm.

Carol Brenner (50:22.409)
There's so many levels to to it, and and every time you read it or look at it, you know, watch the a film or a stage production, you get new understanding, and that's Hamlet. And you know, Hamlet is almost like every man, right? It it's it's because he's you see him going through his spiritual maturity through the play.

And in some places it's very painful to watch what what he has to go through. And there are many soliloquies in the play Hamlet because he's constantly trying to work things out within himself about life and death and you know the idea of suicide because he doesn't want to face what you know is in front of him, what he what he w the ghost asked him to do, which is to revenge his father's death.

But that's a great play. And if people feel inspired to watch, there's a couple of great films out there. one would be an early film with Lawrence Olivier, another one would be with Kenneth Brownag. He did the full version. he you know, he played Hamlet and his wife at the time, Emma Thompson, I believe she played Ophelia.

And then there's an actor, a song Cumberbatch, I think is his name. He's kind of a newer actor. that's also a good one. And I can put that in the notes so I make sure I've got them the name correct. but those that's what I would recommend. And seeing a live performance is a wonderful thing, but also seeing a film, a really good film of the plays is also great.

Kristen Wambach (52:15.022)
Awesome. Carol, how can our listeners find you and and connect with you?

Carol Brenner (52:24.047)
Yes, well I have a website. My website is Carol Brenner.com and it's being updated, but you know, it's i it's got all my information there. And then I also have I'm active on Facebook under Shakespeare Guru.

And I have I'm on LinkedIn under Carol Brenner Shakespeare Guru and Instagram and Twitter. Right now I'm most active on Shakespeare Guru Facebook. and yeah, that's and then on my email, right, which which is Carol at Carol Brenner.com.

Kristen Wambach (52:59.34)
Excellent. Thank you so much.

Kristen Wambach (53:04.832)
Is there a a tool or a prayer or or like if you wanted to take Portia's quote again and pray that over us, would you do that for us please?

Carol Brenner (53:20.807)
I would love to do that.

Carol Brenner (53:27.885)
O beloved Holy Spirit, we call to you and ask that you inspire our hearts with passion and love.

For the truth, and the truth as it is expressed through the stories of the Shakespeare plays. Dear Lord, I ask that all of the listeners, all of Christians, audience members, might find wisdom and inspiration in Shakespeare and in Jesus.

And gain greater understanding about their own lives and the world in which they live. And I accept this done in your holy name, O God. Amen.

Kristen Wambach (54:29.966)
Thank you. Thank you, Carol, for doing such a lovely job at sharing with us your passions.

Carol Brenner (54:40.401)
Thank you. It's been a delight to be with you and all these wonderful people that are going to hear this message.

Kristen Wambach (54:47.651)
Yes, they are. Thank you ever so much.

INTERACTIVE WATCHING PROMPTS FOR YOUTUBE LIVE "ASK"

When you join us for the YouTube LIVE broadcast, don’t just watch—participate with us in real time! Grab your coffee, open your heart, and drop your thoughts in the chat as we journey through these moments together. Welcome to "Ask," just to the right of the share button!DROPPING THE ARMOR (~11:39): Tell us in the chat: Have you ever found yourself trapped behind heavy armor or rigid performance, trying to manage everything on your own?
Type "GRACE OVER SELF-RELIANCE" in the comments as a bold declaration that you are laying down the struggle and stepping into freedom today!
NAME IT TO TAME IT (~17:12): In the comments, share what area of your inner world needs the gentle, unstrained rain of mercy today:
1️⃣ Holding onto a strict ledger of rights, wrongs, or unforgiveness
2️⃣ Fear of closed doors and the pressure to force your own way forward
3️⃣ Breaking the habit of constant self-defense so you can receive God's grace.
Drop your number 1, 2, or 3 in the chat so our community can stand in agreement with you to call it by name, get it out in the open, and let mercy take over!
SPEAKING TO YOUR MOUNTAIN (~39:09): Drop in the chat: What closed door or heavy obstacle in your life has been waiting for you to step forward with God-given imagination and courage?
​Type "I STEP INTO THE FOREST" as we agree together that, as you voice the truth, the atmosphere shifts, and a brand-new path opens up!

Unmasking the Heart: Where Timeless Plays Meet the Sermon on the Mount

When we sit in a theater and watch a classic drama unfold, what are we really looking at? We tend to think we are just watching actors on a stage, reciting lines written centuries ago. But if you strip away the velvet curtains, the elaborate costumes, and the poetic verse, you realize something startling: you are looking straight into a mirror.
Classic stories and timeless plays act as an unvarnished reflection of the human heart. They map out the exact same internal terrain, the exact same hidden motives, and the exact same spiritual battles that Jesus laid out on the hillside during the Sermon on the Mount.

The quality of mercy is not strained. When we stop demanding a strict ledger of rights and wrongs, we step out of prison and into a double blessing."
— Carol Brenner

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From Stage to Spirit

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The Mirror of the Stage

Think about the brilliant psychological depth found in works like Shakespeare's King Lear or Macbeth. They aren't just dusty textbooks assigned in a high school literature class. They are profound studies in the human condition. When Lear lets pride blind him to truth, or when Macbeth takes one small, compromising step toward raw ambition, they are playing out the very dangers Jesus warned us about.
They show us the heavy, exhausting cost of self-reliance. We watch these characters try to manage their worlds, build their own security, and protect their egos with heavy armor. And as we sit in the audience, a quiet realization hits us: We do the exact same thing. We put on our own daily performances. We whisper rationalizations to ourselves in the dead of night. We build kingdoms out of our own strength, only to watch them crumble under the weight of our own making.

When you place these classic plays right next to the Sermon on the Mount, you realize they are mapping out the exact same journey: what happens when we choose our own ambition versus when we surrender to grace." — Carol Brenner

Dropping the Armor and Choosing Grace

The beauty of stepping out of the theater and back into the teachings of Jesus is that He doesn't leave us trapped behind our masks. The Sermon on the Mount invites us to lay down the performance entirely.
In our daily lives, we spend so much energy trying to keep up appearances. We carry a mental ledger of who owes us, who slighted us, and how we need to defend our territory. But Jesus calls us into a completely different reality—a reality defined by profound humility and unstrained grace. When we stop performing, we discover the freedom of dropping our armor. We realize that we don't have to hold everything together through sheer willpower.

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The Power of Unstrained Mercy

One of the most breathtaking moments in our spiritual walk—and in classic literature, like Portia’s famous speech on mercy—is realizing the absolute power of forgiveness that isn't forced. Mercy drops like gentle rain. It isn't strained or squeezed out of a grudging heart; it overflows naturally when we realize how much we have been forgiven.
When we stop demanding a strict, rigid ledger of rights and wrongs from the people around us, something radical happens. We step out of our self-made prisons. Choosing mercy over judgment isn't just a nice moral suggestion; it is the gateway to a double blessing. It frees the other person, and just as importantly, it completely sets us free.

Navigating Closed Doors with Imagination

So, what happens when we face closed doors, dead ends, or unexpected detours in our own lives? We often make the mistake of standing still, staring at the barrier, and waiting for someone to rescue us.
Look at characters like Rosalind, who don't sit around when faced with exile and difficulty. Instead, they step into the forest with courage, curiosity, and imagination. God has given us a spirit of creativity and a heavenly imagination. When a door closes in front of you, don't assume the story is over. Use your God-given imagination to trust that a brand-new path is waiting to be walked out.

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The Monday-Morning Anchor

Transformation isn't just about having an emotional breakthrough while reading a script or listening to a podcast; it is about what you do when Monday morning arrives.

• Identify the Armor: Where are you relying on your own strength or replaying a rigid inner soundtrack today?
  
• Drop the Ledger: Release the scorekeeping. Let the gentle rain of mercy wash away old frustrations in your relationships.
  
• Step Forward: Stop staring at closed doors. Take one practical step of faith this week, trusting that grace has already gone ahead of you to carve out a way.
  

You don't need a performance to be worthy, and you don't need heavy armor to be safe. Lay it down, step into the light, and watch how grace rewrites your story.

COACHING CHURCH ACTIVATIONS

• The Core Activation: Stop evaluating your current season through the lens of performance or closed doors. This week, identify one area where you are holding onto a rigid ledger or heavy armor, and consciously choose to let it go.
  
• The Monday-Morning Step: Replace self-reliance with an active posture of mercy. When judgment or frustration creeps in, speak peace over that exact situation and watch how grace opens a brand-new, unexpected door.
  

It really brings us back to Jesus' heart questions: Who are you when the performance stops and nobody is watching?" — Kristen Wambach

HEY THERE: MEET KRISTEN WAMBACH

I am a transformation coach, keynote speaker, podcaster, and author dedicated to bridging the gap between heaven and earth. Through the Interviewing Jesus Podcast and practical spiritual resources, my mission is to help you connect with your God-given DNA calling, strip away performance and burnout, and live a life infused with divine wisdom, authenticity, and fearless purpose.

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Episode Takeaway & Summary

When we strip away the velvet curtains of classic theater and place those stories right next to the Sermon on the Mount, we find an unvarnished mirror for the human heart. We realize that the heavy armor we carry, the inner performances we maintain, and the rigid ledgers we keep are entirely unnecessary. True freedom isn't found in self-reliance or pride—it is found when we lay down our masks, let the gentle rain of mercy wash over us, and use our God-given imagination to step past closed doors into a brand-new path.

Call to Action!

Ready to stop performing and start living from a place of divine grace? Here is how you can take this conversation further today:

• Subscribe & Review: Hit subscribe on the Interviewing Jesus Podcast, leave a review, and share this episode with a friend who needs a reminder of what grace looks like.
• Join the Live Chat: Tune in for our weekly YouTube LIVE broadcast to drop your thoughts in the chat, engage with our community, and stand in agreement during our live activations.
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